Børresen M1

[Purité Audio]

I would stick to looking at the speakers overall measurements rather than worrying about cone material which in a properly designed speaker will not matter a jot.
Keith

 

[gino1961]

.... And overall kind of nonsense, considering that the Kii Three uses extraordinarily cheap drivers (outside of the customized Seas DXT tweeter)...

hi really ? very interesting Now i am curious Which ones ?
however i really do not understand this approach They are 15keuro speakers I would have used some of the best drivers available
Not only When a concept is very good it can be scaled up and down to get more undistorted SPL and more bandwidth usually with bigger cones
i understand the bass response is more challenging that the mids and highs
It is important to get a concept right And i guess this is one case

 

[gino1961]

I would stick to looking at the speakers overall measurements rather than worrying about cone material which in a properly designed speaker will not matter a jot.
Keith

this is not what they think at Harbeth Loudspeakers at least And i tend to agree with them The sound of material is a real thing
Listen at 12:18

 

[Mart68]

you mean trivial ? then why so poor components are used ? for poor i mean parts with high distortion bad csd and so on
i like when they start discussing drivers But also cabinet design and cosntruction are very dear to me I am trying to understand what makes a speaker disappear sonically
i experienced this very exciting sensation few times and never at home One time when listening wilson audio watt plus puppy
The speakers seemed like electrically disconnect from the amps Wonderful This is what i am looking for

This is a combination of the loudspeaker's design and room acoustics.

Nothing to do with quality of parts since it is possible to get that effect with very cheap speakers.

 

[gino1961]

This is a combination of the loudspeaker's design and room acoustics.

yes but imho some speakers are much better than other at disappearing sonically And tend to disappear even in an acoustically bad room I am sure of this
the idea is to address the speakers first Then the room

Nothing to do with quality of parts since it is possible to get that effect with very cheap speakers.

how ? i am all ears I can only say that the best speakers at disappearing that i tried are these They are heavy for what it counts

https://s3.amazonaws.com/gibson-pro-audio/krk/manuals/6000_spec_sheet.pdf

 

[Pearljam5000]

Now I want some zirconium Genelecs

 

[Mart68]

.

yes but imho some speakers are much better than other at disappearing sonically And tend to disappear even in an acoustically bad room I am sure of this
the idea is to address the speakers first Then the room

how ? i am all ears I can only say that the best speakers at disappearing that i tried are these They are heavy for what it counts

https://s3.amazonaws.com/gibson-pro-audio/krk/manuals/6000_spec_sheet.pdf

View attachment 412317

I agree the speaker design plays some part as I mentioned. However...

These speakers I am currently using are very dissimilar to those you posted, but the sound exists totally independently of them in my room:




In my own experience keeping the speakers a good distance from the rear boundary and sufficiently damping the room, paying attention to the wall behind the listener especially, are major contributing factors.

There is probably more to it, and more expert people than me to advise. This is a complex subject and you'd be better starting a new thread.

 

[gino1961]

.


I agree the speaker design plays some part as I mentioned. However...

These speakers I am currently using are very dissimilar to those you posted, but the sound exists totally independently of them in my room:




In my own experience keeping the speakers a good distance from the rear boundary and sufficiently damping the room, paying attention to the wall behind the listener especially, are major contributing factors.

There is probably more to it, and more expert people than me to advise. This is a complex subject and you'd be better starting a new thread.

hi thank you very much for your kind and valuable advice Very nice system indeed As i said above the concept i have still in my mind is the sat above a bass box
But these speakers are very beautiful and i am sure they must sound amazing

 

[Killingbeans]

yes but this is a wrong design But with the HW and SW tools available these days is very difficult for an expert to design badly
they must want to make a mistake

I think you grossly underestimate incompetence of some of the "designers" out there. Their only saving grace comes from the fact that humans are willing to accept an awful lot of glaring design flaws as a sign of innovation or genius out-of-the-box thinking.

Not to mention that some manufacturers gladly mess things up on purpose in order to stand out from the crowd. Like you say, they genuinely want to make mistakes.

Yes, actual experts have more tools than ever to help them make SOTA products. But the problem is that the definition of "expert" is pretty weakly defined in this hobby.

A fancy narrative speaks way louder than data, and as long as your products look the part, and the BS in your marketing hits all of the right keys in layman's intuition, it's easy to get a cult following going.

One thing that surprised me a lot is hearing how important is the material of which a cone is made for the sound And the say that the sound quality test can be done only by listening specific tracks for me this is a bit like surrendering to ignorance
i am sure that the mechanical behaviour of a cone can be checked with specific test signals like arbitrary waveforms and so on

You don't need any fancy measurements. The only "sound" you get from a speaker cone is its breakup modes. They stem from a mix of materials and geometry, and you can see them in a simple frequency response. A well designed crossover should be able to bring them down to an inaudible level, making the whole thing a moot point.

Any "sound", that people claim to hear from a material in pistonic motion, is pure imagination.

 

[Koeitje]

this is not what they think at Harbeth Loudspeakers at least And i tend to agree with them The sound of material is a real thing
Listen at 12:18

No speaker designer will deny that. Every cone material will behave differently under load. Paper cones tend to breakup more gradually but start to breakup earlier, while more rigid materials will breakup much later and might just fall off a cliff. You design with and around those limitations.

 

[Killingbeans]

The speakers seemed like electrically disconnect from the amps Wonderful This is what i am looking for

Then you should probably focus more on the listening room and the placement of the speakers.

 

[gino1961]

I think you grossly underestimate incompetence of some of the "designers" out there. Their only saving grace comes from the fact that humans are willing to accept an awful lot of glaring design flaws as a sign of innovation or genius out-of-the-box thinking.
Not to mention that some manufacturers gladly mess things up on purpose in order to stand out from the crowd. Like you say, they genuinely want to make mistakes.

this surprises me a lot some brands are a reference in the audio world and i guess that their success among audio lovers has solid bases
i am not referring to economic success There have been brands that went down but their products were really good

Yes, actual experts have more tools than ever to help them make SOTA products. But the problem is that the definition of "expert" is pretty weakly defined in this hobby.
A fancy narrative speaks way louder than data, and as long as your products look the part, and the BS in your marketing hits all of the right keys in layman's intuition, it's easy to get a cult following going.

the statement is very firm and clear This hit me No narrative Not all cones sound the same Because not all materials behave the same mechanically
PP is different from paper aluminum carbon fiber fiberglass kevlar and so on I am sure this different behaviour could be seen on scopes with the right test signal
i am almost 100% sure

You don't need any fancy measurements.

i do not know what you mean for fancy csd is fancy ? thd imd sw response ?

The only "sound" you get from a speaker cone is its breakup modes. They stem from a mix of materials and geometry, and you can see them in a simple frequency response. A well designed crossover should be able to bring them down to an inaudible level, making the whole thing a moot point.

i am doubtful about this

Any "sound", that people claim to hear from a material in pistonic motion, is pure imagination.

maybe the problem is that not all materials have a pistonic motion ? for instance some are much more stiff and lighter than others
not all materials are the same

 

[Mart68]

this surprises me a lot some brands are a reference in the audio world and i guess that their success among audio lovers has solid bases

True of some, not true of others. The Hi-Fi business is a great example of how effective good marketing can be.

I think this is because hi-fi is science and engineering and for most people (including me), their formal science education ended at age 16 and they have no formal engineering education at all.

But they do have money, and a willingness to believe what the salesman tells them.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

you mean trivial ? then why so poor components are used ? for poor i mean parts with high distortion bad csd and so on
i like when they start discussing drivers But also cabinet design and cosntruction are very dear to me I am trying to understand what makes a speaker disappear sonically
i experienced this very exciting sensation few times and never at home One time when listening wilson audio watt plus puppy
The speakers seemed like electrically disconnect from the amps Wonderful This is what i am looking for

No. It means defining superior components by their performance. There is no global definition of superior, only by relation to performance in context.

 

[gino1961]

No. It means defining superior components by their performance. There is no global definition of superior, only by relation to performance in context.

for me superior means to measure better than a similar component
i am looking for a 6.5 woofer at the moment
it will be used in a 2 ways to cover the range up to 3 kHz
looking at one online catalogue

Approx 6"-7" Woofers: Speaker Components & DIY Audio Parts | Madisound

Speaker drivers, kits, and audio components for DIY speaker building. Browse woofers, tweeters, crossovers, and complete speaker kits from leading manufacturers.

www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

i see units ranging from about 1200 USD to 18 USD
can we say that the more expensive one is superior ? if not the price difference would be not reasonable
tell just one very top speakers with cheap drivers I am very interested to find one I do not like to waste money

 

[Kal Rubinson]

for me superior means to measure better than a similar component

Good, as long as it is defined by relevant properties.

 

[gino1961]

Good, as long as it is defined by relevant properties.

well i mainly look for a flat FR low IMD and THD and a nice CSD and possibly good efficiency
problem is that usually in the data sheets only FR and sensitivity are reported Good but not enough I believe a lot in multitones distortion measurements
very uncommon and i wonder why I am sick for accuracy I like when what comes out resembles very much to what goes in

 

[Killingbeans]

maybe the problem is that not all materials have a pistonic motion ? for instance some are much more stiff and lighter than others
not all materials are the same

That's the misguided layman's intuition I was talking about.

All materials show pistonic motion below their breakup frequencies. A stiff and light cone will break up at very high frequencies and do so violently. A heavy and flexible cone will break up at much lower frequencies, but do so benignly. That's why "antiquated" paper mixes with optional damping coatings are still one of the best compromises.

When a driver is reproducing sound below its breakup frequencies, the driver material does not have a sound.

 

[gino1961]

That's the misguided layman's intuition I was talking about. All materials show pistonic motion below their breakup frequencies. A stiff and light cone will break up at very high frequencies and do so violently. A heavy and flexible cone will break up at much lower frequencies, but do so benignly. That's why "antiquated" paper mixes with optional damping coatings are still one of the best compromises. When a driver is reproducing sound below its breakup frequencies, the driver material does not have a sound.

Hi thanks a lot for the very kind and valuable advice
just to be sure to understand I copy a freq response of a driver here below

at what Hz the break-up starts ? or better up to which Hz this driver shows a pistonic motion ?

 

[dfuller]

hi really ? very interesting Now i am curious Which ones ?
however i really do not understand this approach They are 15keuro speakers I would have used some of the best drivers available
Not only When a concept is very good it can be scaled up and down to get more undistorted SPL and more bandwidth usually with bigger cones
i understand the bass response is more challenging that the mids and highs
It is important to get a concept right And i guess this is one case

What Drivers Do They Use? – Kii Audio / Kii Three

The Kii Audio Kii Three, is a briliant construction and innovation setting new standards for a small speaker this size. Brain child of not least Bruno Putzeys, the inventor of the UcD class D ampli…

www.sensibleaudio.dk