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AXPONA 2017: Harman, Mark Levinson, JBL, Revel Speakers, Nordost, Aurender
- Thread starter amirm
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OP
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Audio Solutions of Indy had a super large suite again with the same attentive and friendly crew. Combined with pushy attitude from Troy and I, they literally moved heaven and earth to accommodate us. If you live in the area and have interest in these products, I heavily recommend that you do business with them.
And while I type this, again a reminder that I own some of this gear and my company does a lot of business with Harman (far more in custom electronics than the retail products shown here however). So please read as much bias as you like in my postings.
And while I type this, again a reminder that I own some of this gear and my company does a lot of business with Harman (far more in custom electronics than the retail products shown here however). So please read as much bias as you like in my postings.
OP
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OP
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Last year they did not have the JBL 4367 and we filled their ears to bring them. Was very pleased to see them, allowing a comparison of them to my Salon 2 Revel speakers in similar settings. I hope Troy also chimes in with his observations.
They had a two-sided room with one side having the JBL everest. That being the old school design and pretty expensive, we did not spend much time there. Instead we asked him to turn the room around to let us compare the JBL 4367 to Revel Salon 2.
First up was JBL 4367. While I had heard them at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest show last year, this was a much better opportunity to hear them in a larger room and with much more control over volume and such. I should mention that I came back to this room the next day for more listening with JBL 4367.
My immediate impression was incredible power and dynamics not in bass, but in mid to high frequencies in JBL 4367. That was evident in this classic and well recorded track, Stevie Ray Vaughan & Double Trouble. https://shz.am/t5109006
Those frequencies were also ultra clean. The overall level though in high frequencies was a bit high. I hate to use the word "bright" as it was clean and not distorted but just piercing at times. I think this is due to their targeted market of being studio monitors with ultra flat frequency response. As such, for residential listening I think equalization is a must to roll that off some.
The other downside which could have been visual placebo, but you constantly thought the sound came from the narrow slit of the horns. The projections, while awesome, seemed to emanate from that position. I closed my eyes and that helped some but unless you listen to music that way, I think the perception of it having a narrow directivity in that regard remains.
We then switched to Revel Salon 2 with some attempt to put them in the same position. The Revel had that much smoother high frequencies. And sound seemed to come from a diffused and integrated field around their entire column. So the problem of "narrow horn" described above was gone. Overall tonality was much more pleasant.
On the bass response, the Revel Salon 2 has superior drivers and in my opinion, cleaner, better sound. JBL woofers are still old school and once the horn hands off to them, you are at the mercy of 1970s technology. Efficiency is much lower than the horns and linearity worse than beryllium drivers in Revel Salon 2. At least this is my mumbo jumbo sales talk to say I like my own speakers better in this regard.
On the downside, and this is something I have experienced on my own system, that regardless of volume, you just can't get the dynamics that mid to high frequencies had in JBL 4367. And for that matter against any other horn speaker. The super high efficiency of horns in mid to high frequencies is just hard to replicate with other technologies. So if you want high dynamics there, then the JBL 4367 is a star.
Speaking with the presenter after the demo, he almost stole the above out of my mouth.
Net, net, if you listen and enjoy dynamic music and at high volume, and can deploy equalization, then the JBL 4367 is a cheaper, and better choice than Revel Salon 2.
If you want "audiophile" speakers which out of box have excellent blend of lows and highs, with smoother response and lower distortion bass, then Revel Salon 2 speaker would be the better of the two in my opinion.
They had a two-sided room with one side having the JBL everest. That being the old school design and pretty expensive, we did not spend much time there. Instead we asked him to turn the room around to let us compare the JBL 4367 to Revel Salon 2.
First up was JBL 4367. While I had heard them at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest show last year, this was a much better opportunity to hear them in a larger room and with much more control over volume and such. I should mention that I came back to this room the next day for more listening with JBL 4367.
My immediate impression was incredible power and dynamics not in bass, but in mid to high frequencies in JBL 4367. That was evident in this classic and well recorded track, Stevie Ray Vaughan & Double Trouble. https://shz.am/t5109006
Those frequencies were also ultra clean. The overall level though in high frequencies was a bit high. I hate to use the word "bright" as it was clean and not distorted but just piercing at times. I think this is due to their targeted market of being studio monitors with ultra flat frequency response. As such, for residential listening I think equalization is a must to roll that off some.
The other downside which could have been visual placebo, but you constantly thought the sound came from the narrow slit of the horns. The projections, while awesome, seemed to emanate from that position. I closed my eyes and that helped some but unless you listen to music that way, I think the perception of it having a narrow directivity in that regard remains.
We then switched to Revel Salon 2 with some attempt to put them in the same position. The Revel had that much smoother high frequencies. And sound seemed to come from a diffused and integrated field around their entire column. So the problem of "narrow horn" described above was gone. Overall tonality was much more pleasant.
On the bass response, the Revel Salon 2 has superior drivers and in my opinion, cleaner, better sound. JBL woofers are still old school and once the horn hands off to them, you are at the mercy of 1970s technology. Efficiency is much lower than the horns and linearity worse than beryllium drivers in Revel Salon 2. At least this is my mumbo jumbo sales talk to say I like my own speakers better in this regard.
On the downside, and this is something I have experienced on my own system, that regardless of volume, you just can't get the dynamics that mid to high frequencies had in JBL 4367. And for that matter against any other horn speaker. The super high efficiency of horns in mid to high frequencies is just hard to replicate with other technologies. So if you want high dynamics there, then the JBL 4367 is a star.
Speaking with the presenter after the demo, he almost stole the above out of my mouth.
Net, net, if you listen and enjoy dynamic music and at high volume, and can deploy equalization, then the JBL 4367 is a cheaper, and better choice than Revel Salon 2.
If you want "audiophile" speakers which out of box have excellent blend of lows and highs, with smoother response and lower distortion bass, then Revel Salon 2 speaker would be the better of the two in my opinion.
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Really interesting A, did you notice any 'nasality' to voices with the JBL/
Fantastic job btw.
Keith
Fantastic job btw.
Keith
Timely as I plan to upgrade speakers this year (though life circumstances but knock me out of the running, again ). The Salon 2 and M2 speakers are on my short list to audition, and of course the 4367 should be in the mix. I plan to visit Roger and Angie to check out his latest ESLs, and of course find someplace with Maggies.
Interesting that Amir's impression mirrors my own through the years: horns are just unbeatable for dynamics but overall just never moved me enough to own a pair (well, early BIC's, Klipsch, and a few others, but none since college days). They just never seem to blend with the woofers and got all beamy and all so the image collapsed as frequencies went up if you weren't right in the sweet spot. I know there are some very good horns out there, just hard to find and I have not auditioned them.
). The Salon 2 and M2 speakers are on my short list to audition, and of course the 4367 should be in the mix. I plan to visit Roger and Angie to check out his latest ESLs, and of course find someplace with Maggies.Interesting that Amir's impression mirrors my own through the years: horns are just unbeatable for dynamics but overall just never moved me enough to own a pair (well, early BIC's, Klipsch, and a few others, but none since college days). They just never seem to blend with the woofers and got all beamy and all so the image collapsed as frequencies went up if you weren't right in the sweet spot. I know there are some very good horns out there, just hard to find and I have not auditioned them.
Not tempted to make your own dsp 3 way Don?Timely as I plan to upgrade speakers this year (though life circumstances but knock me out of the running, again
Interesting that Amir's impression mirrors my own through the years: horns are just unbeatable for dynamics but overall just never moved me enough to own a pair (well, early BIC's, Klipsch, and a few others, but none since college days). They just never seem to blend with the woofers and got all beamy and all so the image collapsed as frequencies went up if you weren't right in the sweet spot. I know there are some very good horns out there, just hard to find and I have not auditioned them.
Nope, no time between work and family stuff, and despite those long-ago grad classes I am not a speaker designer. I have helped some folk make their own panels, both ESL and planar-dynamic, as well as numerous others (of all sorts of designs) for myself and friends, but frankly just don't have the time, workshop, and inclination now. It is tempting when I see the prices, though; above the Magnepan 3.7's at around $5k~$6k everything I am interested in trying is around $15k~$20k and that's a lot of change. This will be the third or fourth time in the past 7-10 years I have planned to replace my aging (1984-vintage) Maggies, and the same number of times some major expenses have unexpectedly hit. My wife is OK with it, and says do it now before we retire and while I can still (sort-of) hear, but then says she wants to go to AK with the family this summer after we've spent $15k in travel in a few months, and I want to retire before I am 141 if at all possible.
OP
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- #9
SPFC
Member
Another great experience at AXPONA. Thanks Amir!
The JBL 4367 did not have the typical "horn sound" that I expected. I didn't hear any of the horn coloration I have come to expect (nasality and the cupping your hands over your mouth when talking type of sound). They did sound extremely detailed and dynamic. To my ears, they were also a little too bright and the highs and mids overpowered the bottom octaves during dynamic peaks, even in this very large room. Would be great to build a hybrid speaker with the JBL horn and Revel bass drivers from the Salon 2.
The JBL 4367 did not have the typical "horn sound" that I expected. I didn't hear any of the horn coloration I have come to expect (nasality and the cupping your hands over your mouth when talking type of sound). They did sound extremely detailed and dynamic. To my ears, they were also a little too bright and the highs and mids overpowered the bottom octaves during dynamic peaks, even in this very large room. Would be great to build a hybrid speaker with the JBL horn and Revel bass drivers from the Salon 2.
Probably the dynamic hiccup from a horn mid/top to a non-horn bottom will always be a audible glitch that only a fully horn loaded system can overcome. All ya need is room.
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
Have you considered Blu Tack?
TitaniumTroy
Active Member
While I agree with Amir and SPFC about the overall sound of the JBL 4367's. Being a hard core imaging/soundstage type, that is what I really like about these speakers. That and their rip your face off dynamics, yeah the Revel Salon II's are better intergrated and smoother overall.
However I would still take the sound of the 4367, in fact I will be going to Audio Solutions soon to listen in their room. Which is definitely better than a large hotel room, with an opening on one side of and curtains and glass on the other. Also they will put them up about 6" higher on some speaker stands.
FYI, currently I have a pair of JBL LSR308's in my room, they have similar 3D imaging like my Magnepan 3.6's. They didn't sound so good at first until I remembered to change the subwoofer crossover from 40hz to 80hz then everything was great. Also I have heard the JBL Everest's a few times and meh, they didn't do anything for me. Also I could really do without manf. trying to show off their horn speakers with some loud saxophone music blaring harshly into your ears.
I might just end buying the 4367's, planer imaging and horn speaker dynamics. Isn't that some peoples idea of the perfect speaker? I also thought I would miss the ribbon tweeter, and speed of the planers but not so much. Plus if I crossover the 4367's to my subwoofer wouldn't that help lessen the difference between them and Salon's?
However I would still take the sound of the 4367, in fact I will be going to Audio Solutions soon to listen in their room. Which is definitely better than a large hotel room, with an opening on one side of and curtains and glass on the other. Also they will put them up about 6" higher on some speaker stands.
FYI, currently I have a pair of JBL LSR308's in my room, they have similar 3D imaging like my Magnepan 3.6's. They didn't sound so good at first until I remembered to change the subwoofer crossover from 40hz to 80hz then everything was great. Also I have heard the JBL Everest's a few times and meh, they didn't do anything for me. Also I could really do without manf. trying to show off their horn speakers with some loud saxophone music blaring harshly into your ears.
I might just end buying the 4367's, planer imaging and horn speaker dynamics. Isn't that some peoples idea of the perfect speaker? I also thought I would miss the ribbon tweeter, and speed of the planers but not so much. Plus if I crossover the 4367's to my subwoofer wouldn't that help lessen the difference between them and Salon's?
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #14
I am not sure. They are really different speakers.
TitaniumTroy
Active Member
Amir, remember I am just a lowly Uber driver. With Uber driver ears and Uber driver paycheck.
dallasjustice
Major Contributor
For those folks who don't use DSP for full range target curves, the 4367 has a high frequency adjustment knob. I have mine set to flat. But I use DSP to roll off HF. I like about 5db-6db rolloff at 20khz with the hinge at around 1khz. Of course, it's all personal preference.
dallasjustice
Major Contributor
I've tried totally flat target curves using DSP. With the 4367, it can produce a textbook step response. But it sounds way too aggressive to me.
dallasjustice
Major Contributor
I would also guess that the 4367 really needs a sub more so than the Revel speakers.
I read somewhere someone said the JBL 4367 was like owning a Ferrari. I wouldn't know what that's like but I sort of understand the analogy. It's not the complete package for everyone. But if you set it up the way you want and you like a more narrow off axis listening field with ultimate dynamics, it's a winner.
I read somewhere someone said the JBL 4367 was like owning a Ferrari. I wouldn't know what that's like but I sort of understand the analogy. It's not the complete package for everyone. But if you set it up the way you want and you like a more narrow off axis listening field with ultimate dynamics, it's a winner.
Still the horn "dynamics" thing. Didn't we have a look at some ordinary box speakers and find that their measurements showed the dynamics to be just fine? Are we sure that horns are great at dynamics rather than just having a tendency to rip your face off? Or is there a phase alignment issue with typical non-DSP box speakers and crossovers that kills transient edges? DSP active box speakers sound very dynamic to me...
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