AVR vs Stereo amp for music

[Chrispy]

Not really - I just got comfy with ART. With all the respect to OCA and his great work, what ART does is just another level. Teams of folks have worked on that for years and it is bloody awesome. Creating an algo like ART is immensely complex.

I more wonder how that compares to Trinnov....

 

[Oddball]

I more wonder how that compares to Trinnov....

Much cheaper and no strict sub requirements for subs? Dirac Live which is what is above the 20-150hz ART range is a mixed bag though, but probably the best bar Trinnov.

 

[Miker 1102]

The biggest problem I have with AVRs in recent years is the decrease in build quality. From the late 90s to around 2005 you could buy a nice $1k AVR from Denon/Yamaha/Marantz/Onkyo etc that weighed around 40 lbs with a solid aluminum face plate and knobs (that turned very smoothly). They had much nicer remotes that were often backlit. And a lot of that 40 lb weight came from the power supplies under the hood. Today's AVRs insides leave a lot to be desired in the power supply department until you spend about $2k, and even then there's a good chance it will have practically soda can thin aluminum over a plastic face plate, and plastic knobs. And it all started when HDMI was introduced...

That's my personal opinion and as they say, to each his own. I'm not knocking anyone that uses and enjoys AVRs. I prefer a much simpler 2 channel myself these days in a treated room and eq to taste.

HDMI was like a blessing/Curse. It meant that avrs had to have a whole new board but the convenience was amazing. I was thrilled when hdmi video cards came out, honestly. I always used my home pc for media.
I agree wholeheartedly with your assertion because the old ones were built like tanks. My friend has an old flagship Yamaha pre TrueHD which costs like 4k dollars when it came out and we both feel like it is a sin to get rid of it...byt what do you do? Your position makes sense to me. The avr has become a pc with amps. Like my car is a pc with an engine..lol.

 

[Miker 1102]

I use a Denon 3600 after having used a Yamaha 2600 and a Yamaha Avantage 3030, which are ending their lives with a friend for one and with my brother for the other; without ever having had a single failure.

I also have a Tact 2.2X preamplifier-DAC, a tube preamplifier, and a Harman Kardon transistor preamplifier, plus various DACs and phono preamps.

I have two Gemincore class D amplifiers, a Nad 218 THX, a Mosfet amplifier that I built myself, and various passive and active speakers...

I have done many qualitative comparisons at home and elsewhere, and in any case I find that listening to music in stereo with one of these three AVRs is qualitatively superior to doing so with a stereophonic device.

The main reason being that the ability to manually correct with some of them parametrically if you want with the Yamaha 2600, or with YPAO for the Avantage, and with Audyssey and its app makes all the difference in favor of the AVR.

I would not go back for anything in the world because, in addition, I can listen to my SACDs and Multichannel Blu-rays with the Denon 3600. I never listen to stereo distributed across all channels, however. My living room is large with a high ceiling, very well furnished, and my main speakers are Focal-Divatec MC 210 three-way monitors for listening at a distance equal to or greater than 3 meters. And I am demanding, not stingy, and music is a passion... like hi-fi.

Multichannel music is more important to me than movies with the avr. I just wonder with two channel folks if they heard some of the classics I have such as Floyd, Rush, Eagles mixed in 5.1. I find it hard to give that up. My favorite album to listen to is a 5.1 remix of A Farewell To Kings by Steven Wilson. I mean I used to play that on a cassette boom box that was mono. Listening to that up mixed in DTSX is astonishing.

 

[peng]

And here you have some reviews:

Denon DRA-800H Review (Stereo Receiver)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon DRA-800H Stereo AV Receiver. It was kindly purchased used by a member and drop shipped to me. It costs new US $599 from Amazon including Prime shipping. The front looks like any multi-channel receiver: Then you look in the back and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Audiolab 9000CDT/9000A CD Transport/Amplifier Lab Reports

Lab Reports Audiolab 9000CDT/9000A (DAC) Tested via the 9000A's DAC/preamp output – a maximum 2.06V from a 116ohm source impedance – the partnering 9000CDT transport achieves a wide 109.1dB A-wtd S/N ratio via CD, a figure not bettered even with direct 24-bit inputs to the amplifier. The latter...

www.hifinews.com

It’s tough to directly compare these reviews, but there are a few points that might suggest the measured distortion on 800h was a bit more than what Audiolab showed.

As I alluded to before, the DRA-800H did not measure well on ASR, though I always wonder if the relatively poor results were due to the lack of the LR pre outs, so Amir used Z2 pre outs and program them to mirror the main FL/FR

Amir stated:

I always try to separate the DAC from the rest of AVR to see how well it performs. It was kind of hard here since there is no traditional pre-amp out. Rather, there is Zone 2 which can program to mirror the main zone output so that is what I did. I then fed the unit over HDMI and got our dashboard

It might be possible that when Z2 is programmed to mirror the main zone output in terms of program contents played, but the signal would still follow the Z2 circuitry and parts such as the DAC, volume control and opamps.

I just wish you had done the comparison with a well measured AVR such as the X3000 or 4000H series that have the AK4458 dac ic, or the current X6800H as that would be fairer comparisons. Still, thank you for sharing your comparison listening experience and I agreed the information as presented would not totally anecdotal even if done sighted.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Audiophiles on many forums often make the claim that stereo amps sound far superior to AVR's when playing music

Ask them to prove it.

 

[Dimitrov]

First I'd like to say that I'm glad my initial question has sparked further discussion on the topic. I'm reading all the responses with interest. Thanks again.

 

[Bleib]

My own two cents. Denon AVR-1800h vs Topping PA5 II for instance..there is no difference in audio quality.
The AVR gets extra points for extra features

2 channel SMSL A300 is worse than the AVR because it has hissing that is possible to hear

 

[tineared]

As I alluded to before, the DRA-800H did not measure well on ASR, though I always wonder if the relatively poor results were due to the lack of the LR pre outs, so Amir used Z2 pre outs and program them to mirror the main FL/FR

Amir stated:



It might be possible that when Z2 is programmed to mirror the main zone output in terms of program contents played, but the signal would still follow the Z2 circuitry and parts such as the DAC, volume control and opamps.

I just wish you had done the comparison with a well measured AVR such as the X3000 or 4000H series that have the AK4458 dac ic, or the current X6800H as that would be fairer comparisons. Still, thank you for sharing your comparison listening experience and I agreed the information as presented would not totally anecdotal even if done sighted.

FWIW, during my last move I had a hi-fi emergency and needed to pickup an AV receiver quickly until I could bring my gear over from my last house and picked up an "open box" DRA-800H for $300 based solely on Denon's reputation. I can attest that while it is fully functional, the sound quality is not up to Denon's standards and I would not recommend it. It is now residing in the guest bedroom..

 

[Bleib]

FWIW, during my last move I had a hi-fi emergency and needed to pickup an AV receiver quickly until I could bring my gear over from my last house and picked up an "open box" DRA-800H for $300 based solely on Denon's reputation. I can attest that while it is fully functional, the sound quality is not up to Denon's standards and I would not recommend it. It is now residing in the guest bedroom..

This is likely due to different teams working on some of the 2 channel compared to AVR:

Denon DRA-800H Review (Stereo Receiver)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon DRA-800H Stereo AV Receiver. It was kindly purchased used by a member and drop shipped to me. It costs new US $599 from Amazon including Prime shipping. The front looks like any multi-channel receiver: Then you look in the back and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

If we check this review Amir writes:
"Linearity is some of the worst I have measured:"

The amp section is about 10 points worse than 3700h, which shouldn't be the case as there are only 2 channels to optimize
Analog input also uses ADC, not superb quality..

 

[peng]

FWIW, during my last move I had a hi-fi emergency and needed to pickup an AV receiver quickly until I could bring my gear over from my last house and picked up an "open box" DRA-800H for $300 based solely on Denon's reputation. I can attest that while it is fully functional, the sound quality is not up to Denon's standards and I would not recommend it. It is now residing in the guest bedroom..

Thanks, as you know I don't take sighted comparison listening tests too seriously but as has been said more than once, the DRA-800H did not measure good at all compared to other Denon multi channel AVRs measured so even just based on the DRA power amp's SINAD in the 60's I do believe it might sound audibly inferior to other AVRs, even the AVR-X1800H based on @Bleib 's comments in post#109 even if his was also done sighted, presumably. I had the X1800H for a few months and I also thought it sounded as good as my separates, though also sighted so can't be taken too seriously lol..

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

THere is a wide gap between what we can reliably perceive, and what today's electronics can achieve at sane prices e.g what is routinely provided for what can only be termed "low prices" or "pas cher" by Topping, SMSL wares to name those 2.. there are many others ...
This said, a large, vocal audiophiles constituency, often with substantial financial means, listen to LP and manage to declare that it is superior to "digital" .. Few if any LP chain approaches 60 dB.. I would daresay that the median is around 50 dB.. for the better LP=based systems.. LP rarely achieve 20 to 20 Khz too, thanks to the famed RIAA curve ... talking about a pure signal ..
OTOH a decent AVR from say, Pioneer, Onkyo, Denon, Marantz and others will easily clear 80 dB easy, add a CD player or stream and you barely hit 75 dB of SINAD.. this with ruler-flat Frequency Response within the audible spectrum, 20 to 20 Khz, flat ...
Then comes the perks. There are very few integrated amplifiers, with Room Correction or DSP.. maybe the Lyngdorf, what else .. ?? Many AVR , especially those from Denon/Marantz come with a very powerful DSP fully capable of correcting several issues of the room , mostly , but not restricted to the bass.. And often at the same price as an integrated amplifier.. and often with more amps (yes people amplifers have been reduced to a module about the size of an adult fist, these are audibly transparent; some are capable of SOTA performances in term of linearity and high SINAD... Now , when you start adding those DRC from Audyssey or Dirac to those AVR... Please point me toward integrated amplifers capable of running those ..? Please?

To put things in the right frame. It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to get the bass right without EQ or DSP... Not an opinion. Based on the fact that the room destroys the bass, most any room. The better AVR provide a way to mitigate ,even eliminate the nasties in a room... Few aside from one or 2 Integrated provide such... Repeating the question: Aside from Lyngdorf.. very Pricey items by the way, what brand of integrated amplifers provide such? And at what prices?
Several AVR provides output for multiple subwoofers and have the DSP power to manage those subwoofers with variable crossover, phase control etc... How many Integrated provide that?

Conclusion: AVR should be the hub of any decent audio system, may it be MCH or 2-Channel. it will cost you less while providing better results, objectively and subjectively ...

 

[peng]

The amp section is about 10 points worse than 3700h, which shouldn't be the case as there are only 2 channels to optimize
Analog input also uses ADC, not superb quality..

That, the DRA-800H actually could be a good example that shows one should not generalize that 2 channel/stereo amps are superior to AVRs, in fact to be brunt it would be silly to make such a claim. It always depends, at least on comparing specific models. I hope Denon got their acts together on the DRA-900H.

 

[tineared]

That, the DRA-800H actually could be a good example that shows one should not generalize that 2 channel/stereo amps are superior to AVRs, in fact to be brunt it would be silly to make such a claim. It always depends, at least on comparing specific models. I hope Denon got their acts together on the DRA-900H.

Personally, I intend to avoid the DRA line entirely. I would not consider another Denon without the AVR prefix. Once bitten...

 

[Bleib]

Personally, I intend to avoid the DRA line entirely. I would not consider another Denon without the AVR prefix. Once bitten...

I've loved the rcd-m3x-41 line. Not powerful but many have been recommended by Swedish LTS, which has similar transparency demands as ASR

 

[tineared]

I've loved the rcd-m3x-41 line. Not powerful but many have been recommended by Swedish LTS, which has similar transparency demands as ASR

The truth is I doubt I'll ever buy another receiver. I have an old Onkyo SR805 and a Denon AVR4800 as well as the disappointing DRA800. My main system is all separates.
I'm from the Tim Taylor school of thought with regards to amps...

 

[peng]

The truth is I doubt I'll ever buy another receiver. I have an old Onkyo SR805 and a Denon AVR4800 as well as the disappointing DRA800. My main system is all separates.
I'm from the Tim Taylor school of thought with regards to amps...

The DRA amp really is an outlier of Denon’s, its power amp section is not great, has no preouts, yet it has the highly regarded AK4458 dac implemented in differential configuration. Wonder what the design team was thinking?

 

[tineared]

The DRA amp really is an outlier of Denon’s, its power amo section is not great, has no preouts, yet it has the highly regarded AK4458 dac implemented in differential configuration. Wonder what the design team was thinking?

I'm sure their direction was for an absolute minimum price point. Sadly, this is what frequently happens when huge corporations take control of companies with an excellent reputation.
It will be interesting to see what Samsung has in mind for the Revel line

 

[MLaranjeiras]

I'm confused about something. Audiophiles on many forums often make the claim that stereo amps sound far superior to AVR's when playing music. I wanted to get your feelings on this topic.

On the surface the logic makes sense. Stereo amp is designed to reproduce music. That is the main function. AVR is designed to do many things. I can understand the surface level logic there.

But from a technical standpoint, is there any basis to this? Lower distortion perhaps on the preamp sections/amp side? The argument is that AVR's are the jack of all trades and master of none, and a stereo amp is designed to do one thing really well, hence music performance is superior while an AVR is a compromised solution trying to do too much.

What are your thoughts?

Here,with these models, makes all sense to have an integrated amplifier. It sounds much better than the AV Receiver

 

[krabapple]

I'm confused about something. Audiophiles on many forums often make the claim that stereo amps sound far superior to AVR's when playing music.

They're stupid and wrong.

Don't be like them.