AVR vs Stereo amp for music

[Oddball]

The biggest benefit is that many stereo amps look better than an AVR.

Not sure any other benefits are audible but we listen with our eyes too.

To some extent though. AVRs are looking pretty nowadays.

 

[Chanur]

To some extent though. AVRs are looking pretty nowadays.

I don't hate them but also don't love them. They still largely look like big black bricks.

 

[Chrispy]

My experience starts when there were only 2ch systems. When home access to multich movie soundtracks started coming about I looked for gear that could accommodate and be integrated with the tv (rather than just using tv speakers, which were mostly bad anyways). I had already been somewhat disappointed by the massive differences promised via separates vs receivers/integrated amps, which I didn't find particularly valid. Altho it was easier to get higher power amps with the separates, at this point only used separates, as an integrated amp was a receiver without a tuner more than it was anything else; the hype about 2ch being somehow inherently superior to multich I think is more hype from 2ch gear sellers more than anything else. I started with a rather modest avr and was pleasantly surprised it did just fine with "music" compared to the hype out there. As time went by I added more tvs/avrs to rooms as I really enjoyed the multich sound and the incorporation of subwoofers (which many 2ch integrated amps are still short on). For multich music there's no substitution in any case . I still have that 2ch gear but it's my least used. YMMV.

 

[Rick63]

To some extent though. AVRs are looking pretty nowadays.

The biggest problem I have with AVRs in recent years is the decrease in build quality. From the late 90s to around 2005 you could buy a nice $1k AVR from Denon/Yamaha/Marantz/Onkyo etc that weighed around 40 lbs with a solid aluminum face plate and knobs (that turned very smoothly). They had much nicer remotes that were often backlit. And a lot of that 40 lb weight came from the power supplies under the hood. Today's AVRs insides leave a lot to be desired in the power supply department until you spend about $2k, and even then there's a good chance it will have practically soda can thin aluminum over a plastic face plate, and plastic knobs. And it all started when HDMI was introduced...

That's my personal opinion and as they say, to each his own. I'm not knocking anyone that uses and enjoys AVRs. I prefer a much simpler 2 channel myself these days in a treated room and eq to taste.

 

[Chrispy]

The biggest problem I have with AVRs in recent years is the decrease in build quality. From the late 90s to around 2005 you could buy a nice $1k AVR from Denon/Yamaha/Marantz/Onkyo etc that weighed around 40 lbs with a solid aluminum face plate and knobs (that turned very smoothly). They had much nicer remotes that were often backlit. And a lot of that 40 lb weight came from the power supplies under the hood. Today's AVRs insides leave a lot to be desired in the power supply department until you spend about $2k, and even then there's a good chance it will have practically soda can thin aluminum over a plastic face plate, and plastic knobs.

That's my personal opinion and as they say, to each his own. I'm not knocking anyone that uses and enjoys AVRs. I prefer a much simpler 2 channel myself these days in a treated room and eq to taste.

Still, compared to most integrated amps the avr is still a bargain at $2k. Weight as a metric, let alone using knobs at all except as backup when you've left the remote on the couch, meh Knob feel I haven't considered much since the 80s and even then wasn't a particularly big deal. As to 2ch use, as mentioned, an avr power supply is often more than sufficient and exceeds many 2ch integrated amps.

 

[levimax]

In my experience the biggest difference between AVR's and stereo amps is reliability. Pre AVR I never had any problems with stereo amps, I then had several high end AVR's fail after several years and since no parts were available they were unrepairable. At that point I swore off AVR's, sold off my MC speakers, and went back to stereo and have not had any reliability issues since. No doubt AVR's are incredibly complicated devices sold at a reasonable price which is their biggest strength and biggest weakness.

 

[Chrispy]

In my experience the biggest difference between AVR's and stereo amps is reliability. Pre AVR I never had any problems with stereo amps, I then had several high end AVR's fail after several years and since no parts were available they were unrepairable. At that point I swore off AVR's, sold off my MC speakers, and went back to stereo and have not had any reliability issues since. No doubt AVR's are incredibly complicated devices sold at a reasonable price which is their biggest strength and biggest weakness.

My experience is that all my avrs but one have been quite reliable in the long run. In the short run I had an Onkyo caught up in the issues of the 2009-12 models but their extended warranty repair took care of that and it has performed flawlessly since. The one that went up in blue smoke in the long run was likely a similar issue, just not covered by warranty. Early hdmi had more issues. OTOH I also had a 2ch power amp go up in smoke unexpectedly without particular provocation....

 

[Mort]

Some of us run high SINAD AVRs

'I replaced my AVR with a Flex HT, but don't recommend it.'

 

[Chrispy]

Some of us run high SINAD AVRs

'I replaced my AVR with a Flex HT, but don't recommend it.'

How is a Flex HT an avr? FWIW the link didn't work for me.

 

[Mort]

FWIW the link didn't work for me.

Yah, thanks. I fixed it.

 

[levimax]

My experience is that all my avrs but one have been quite reliable in the long run. In the short run I had an Onkyo caught up in the issues of the 2009-12 models but their extended warranty repair took care of that and it has performed flawlessly since. The one that went up in blue smoke in the long run was likely a similar issue, just not covered by warranty. Early hdmi had more issues. OTOH I also had a 2ch power amp go up in smoke unexpectedly without particular provocation....

The problem with AVRs is if one unavailable board goes out, in my case it was the HDMI board, even though everything else worked, the AVR is still worthless. Apparently they (Sony ES in my case) make a set number of extra replacement boards and if there is an issue with a board they quickly run out and everyone else is out of luck.

 

[Chrispy]

The problem with AVRs is if one unavailable board goes out, in my case it was the HDMI board, even though everything else worked, the AVR is still worthless. Apparently they (Sony ES in my case) make a set number of extra replacement boards and if there is an issue with a board they quickly run out and everyone else is out of luck.

I think this is simply typical of much of the tech now. Even with 2ch gear.

 

[Chanur]

The biggest problem I have with AVRs in recent years is the decrease in build quality. From the late 90s to around 2005 you could buy a nice $1k AVR from Denon/Yamaha/Marantz/Onkyo etc that weighed around 40 lbs with a solid aluminum face plate and knobs (that turned very smoothly). They had much nicer remotes that were often backlit. And a lot of that 40 lb weight came from the power supplies under the hood. Today's AVRs insides leave a lot to be desired in the power supply department until you spend about $2k, and even then there's a good chance it will have practically soda can thin aluminum over a plastic face plate, and plastic knobs. And it all started when HDMI was introduced...

That's my personal opinion and as they say, to each his own. I'm not knocking anyone that uses and enjoys AVRs. I prefer a much simpler 2 channel myself these days in a treated room and eq to taste.

It's cost them money to put HDMI into an AVR. Then they have to pay to decode all the formats. A lot of money is spent on things in an AVR that do not improve its 2 channel sound. The corners have to be cut somewhere to keep the prices reasonable.

 

[Miniyouuuu]

When focusing on listening to songs that are not Atmos and are produced to be heard in 2-channel audio, what configuration do you prefer if you use an AVR? Do you switch the setup to stereo, or do you enable a Dolby mode that processes the sound and distributes it to the 2 front channels and also sends signals to the center and rear channels?

How many of you utilize external power amplifiers for mains power? If you have such a setup, could you please elaborate on the advantages and disadvantages of this configuration for music playback?

In contrast, I have a complex 2.2 setup that includes a MiniDSP flex manual EQ setup (first MSO sub integration, then Dirac Live post integration, and final REW verification). This complexity is significantly simplified when using modern AVRs, allowing for the implementation of Dirac ART, a feature that no stereo amplifier has integrated. I appreciate the control I have and find the process interesting, but I understand that 99% of people do not want the manual way.

I find this thread to be quite engaging and am eager to comprehend the diverse perspectives presented.

 

[Mort]

When focusing on listening to songs that are not Atmos and are produced to be heard in 2-channel audio, what configuration do you prefer if you use an AVR? Do you switch the setup to stereo, or do you enable a Dolby mode that processes the sound and distributes it to the 2 front channels and also sends signals to the center and rear channels?

I do not. I have never liked an AVR or manual upmix. Just never sounded right. Even decently produced multichannel is so much better.

How many of you utilize external power amplifiers for mains power? If you have such a setup, could you please elaborate on the advantages and disadvantages of this configuration for music playback?

There are no sonic advantages besides spl/volume so long as the amp is decent.
Other advantages include bragging rights and the satisfaction of owning nice gear.

 

[Dimitrov]

Typically, in non-acoustically treated rooms, room correction can enhance the acoustics of the listening area. Conversely, in well-treated rooms, the purest sound chain is the preferable choice.

AVRs are versatile and suitable for various driving conditions, but they may not always compare favorably to certain stereo amplifiers in other aspects. Factors such as soundstage width and depth, instrument definition, bass tightness, and overall clarity are some of the advantages that can be achieved when the room is not adversely affecting the sound.

But the vast majority of rooms adversely affect sound.

 

[thcdru2k]

When focusing on listening to songs that are not Atmos and are produced to be heard in 2-channel audio, what configuration do you prefer if you use an AVR? Do you switch the setup to stereo, or do you enable a Dolby mode that processes the sound and distributes it to the 2 front channels and also sends signals to the center and rear channels?

How many of you utilize external power amplifiers for mains power? If you have such a setup, could you please elaborate on the advantages and disadvantages of this configuration for music playback?

In contrast, I have a complex 2.2 setup that includes a MiniDSP flex manual EQ setup (first MSO sub integration, then Dirac Live post integration, and final REW verification). This complexity is significantly simplified when using modern AVRs, allowing for the implementation of Dirac ART, a feature that no stereo amplifier has integrated. I appreciate the control I have and find the process interesting, but I understand that 99% of people do not want the manual way.

I find this thread to be quite engaging and am eager to comprehend the diverse perspectives presented.

I also use a Flex HTx and switch based on the music.

For upmixing I use two approaches. Dolby Surround with center spread on (Denon setting) for pop, rock, and vocals since it keeps things anchored but still wide. I’m not a fan of vocals being hard locked to the center. DTS Neural X for EDM or when I have guests over since it fills the room more.

My AVR is just doing decode and upmix. All crossover, timing, and sub integration is handled in the Flex HTx, except Atmos channels where I handle delay and level in the Denon due to output limits.

I run external amps mainly because the Flex HTx requires it, since there’s no path to route audio back through the Denon. In my bedroom system I run XLR from DAC to amp since it supports it. In practice, I do not think XLR vs RCA without an external DAC would make an audible difference. It's just a preference because I can.

I haven’t moved to Dirac ART mainly because my setup doesn’t support it (X3700H + Flex HTx), and I already manage bass decay well with sub delays and minimal EQ. The open concept room helps.

For CD, HDCD, and XRCD I use a Raspberry Pi transport into the Flex HTx, so it’s 2.2 only. Even if upmix were available, I’d still prefer stereo there, especially for classical and jazz for a more traditional soundstage.

 

[popej]

It's cost them money to put HDMI into an AVR. Then they have to pay to decode all the formats. A lot of money is spent on things in an AVR that do not improve its 2 channel sound. The corners have to be cut somewhere to keep the prices reasonable.

It's the other way around. Prices of stereo are unreasonable.

There are many examples, where manufacturer strips AVR to get a stereo, and then offers it for similar price as a complete AVR. There was even Onkyo stereo receiver, which had printed board from AVR, with parts soldered only for 2 channels. All for people, who prefer stereo and can pay for it.

Edit: 2 more notices:
AVR works perfectly as a stereo. I bought my first AVR, because I wanted good room correction and I have used it with 2.1 setup for many years.

HDMI is a good digital input for audio. Perfect for a streamer build on Raspberry Pi.

 

[Miniyouuuu]

But the vast majority of rooms adversely affect sound.

That’s pretty common, but it’s a great idea to add bass traps, diffusers, or sound absorbers to your space. They’re usually a must-have.

It's the other way around. Prices of stereo are unreasonable.

There are many examples, where manufacturer strips AVR to get a stereo, and then offers it for similar price as a complete AVR. There was even Onkyo stereo receiver, which had printed board from AVR, with parts soldered only for 2 channels. All for people, who prefer stereo and can pay for it.

Edit: 2 more notices:
AVR works perfectly as a stereo. I bought my first AVR, because I wanted good room correction and I have used it with 2.1 setup for many years.

HDMI is a good digital input for audio. Perfect for a streamer build on Raspberry Pi.

Indeed, the economy of scale enables the sale of AVRs and stereo receivers (such as the Marantz Stereo 70 and Denon 900h) at a lower cost. However, it is important to note that these receivers are not significantly cheaper than the equivalent AVRs from which they are derived. As a former owner of a Denon 800h, I can attest to its shortcomings as an amplifier. In fact, I replaced it within six months with an Audiolab amplifier and a MiniDSP Flex. While the comparison is not entirely fair due to the substantial price difference between the Audiolab (€2000) and the MiniDSP (€600), the Audiolab offers a significantly higher value for money. Although the MiniDSP does not provide three times the quality of the Denon 800h, the difference is readily noticeable. In exchange, I have sacrificed HDMI and CEC connectivity.

 

[Haskil]

I use a Denon 3600 after having used a Yamaha 2600 and a Yamaha Avantage 3030, which are ending their lives with a friend for one and with my brother for the other; without ever having had a single failure.

I also have a Tact 2.2X preamplifier-DAC, a tube preamplifier, and a Harman Kardon transistor preamplifier, plus various DACs and phono preamps.

I have two Gemincore class D amplifiers, a Nad 218 THX, a Mosfet amplifier that I built myself, and various passive and active speakers...

I have done many qualitative comparisons at home and elsewhere, and in any case I find that listening to music in stereo with one of these three AVRs is qualitatively superior to doing so with a stereophonic device.

The main reason being that the ability to manually correct with some of them parametrically if you want with the Yamaha 2600, or with YPAO for the Avantage, and with Audyssey and its app makes all the difference in favor of the AVR.

I would not go back for anything in the world because, in addition, I can listen to my SACDs and Multichannel Blu-rays with the Denon 3600. I never listen to stereo distributed across all channels, however. My living room is large with a high ceiling, very well furnished, and my main speakers are Focal-Divatec MC 210 three-way monitors for listening at a distance equal to or greater than 3 meters. And I am demanding, not stingy, and music is a passion... like hi-fi.