AVR vs Stereo amp for music

[thcdru2k]

I think it just comes down to system cleanliness and system goals. If I have two full range passive towers with no plans for expansion I would rather have them powered by a small footprint Hypex/Purifi based amp then a large clunky AVR. If calibration and settings are equal there is likely no audible difference between the two.

If I am setting up a system for someone who needs simplicity I am looking for a Stereo integrated.

 

[Dimitrov]

So one argument I see pop up is that all the DSP and digital wizardry degrades the sound compared to a stereo amp. But with an AVR you can turn off the DSP. Is it not true that DSP turned off is basically just like a stereo preamp? It's direct, nothing added. DSP not in use doesn't affect sound unless I'm talking out my .....

 

[tineared]

The new (yet to be released) miniDSP Tide 16 is an example of superior multichannel processing above the current sea of AVR processors.
It will narrow the gap between AVR and stereo processing

miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

Just received the newsletter, sounds like the one to rule them all (rather expansive at 3500 USD, but ok) https://www.minidsp.com/products/ht-series/tide16 Hardware Features Processor: Quad Core ARM processor / 1.8GHz HDMI 2.0 + EARC/ARC interface (3x1) Included License: Dirac Live® 3.x full...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[voodooless]

So one argument I see pop up is that all the DSP and digital wizardry degrades the sound compared to a stereo amp.

On the contrary! All the room correction stuff should make it sound significantly better than a plain old stereo amp without those features.

 

[thcdru2k]

So one argument I see pop up is that all the DSP and digital wizardry degrades the sound compared to a stereo amp. But with an AVR you can turn off the DSP. Is it not true that DSP turned off is basically just like a stereo preamp? It's direct, nothing added. DSP not in use doesn't affect sound unless I'm talking out my .....

Sigberg Audio Saranna, Kii Audio THREE + BXT, Dutch & Dutch 8c, Genelec, Meridian DSP Loudspeakers are all very nice endgame level speakers. All have built-in DSP. DSP gets a bad rep because it use to be bad, is used incorrectly, and mass-market auto room corrections prioritize convenience.

That being said for simple 2.0 systems... room treatment and placement can largely eliminate the need for DSP. Carefully implemented DSP enhances sound. Yes a lot of AVR you can turn off its internal DSP/bass management using Pure Direct mode.

 

[Oddball]

The new (yet to be released) miniDSP Tide 16 is an example of superior multichannel processing above the current sea of AVR processors.
It will narrow the gap between AVR and stereo processing

miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

Just received the newsletter, sounds like the one to rule them all (rather expansive at 3500 USD, but ok) https://www.minidsp.com/products/ht-series/tide16 Hardware Features Processor: Quad Core ARM processor / 1.8GHz HDMI 2.0 + EARC/ARC interface (3x1) Included License: Dirac Live® 3.x full...

www.audiosciencereview.com

It definitely has merit but don't understand why is it example of superior multichannel processing compared to the current batch of sharks in the tank?

 

[DVDdoug]

So one argument I see pop up is that all the DSP and digital wizardry degrades the sound compared to a stereo amp. But with an AVR you can turn off the DSP. Is it not true that DSP turned off is basically just like a stereo preamp? It's direct, nothing added. DSP not in use doesn't affect sound unless I'm talking out my .....

"Audiophiles" have lots of crazy ideas.

razy audiophiles often avoid tone controls or EQ. But tone controls or EQ can be used to improve "imperfect recordings", they can adjust the sound to your taste (maybe you like more bass, etc.), or they can help to correct some speaker or acoustic imperfections.

We DO Like to START with a setup that can reproduce the sound accurately. Many people like to keep the digital side "bit perfect" which means you don't have to be concerned with and alterations or resampling on the digital-side. I'd say it's kind of an insurance that everything on the digital side is OK. But it also means no digital EQ, no digital volume control. I don't worry about it.


Also, MOST analog electronics are better than human hearing. (Speakers, headphones, and other transducers are more flawed.)


...This is hi-fi heresy because I'm not listening accurately or as-intended, but when listening to stereo recordings I like to use a "hall" or "theater" setting on my AVR for some delayed reverb in the rear speakers and the "feel" of a larger space. (I also REALLY enjoy my shelf-full of DVD concerts with true surround!)

 

[Oddball]

Sigberg Audio Saranna, Kii Audio THREE + BXT, Dutch & Dutch 8c, Genelec, Meridian DSP Loudspeakers are all very nice endgame level speakers. All have built-in DSP. DSP gets a bad rep because it use to be bad, is used incorrectly, and mass-market auto room corrections prioritize convenience.

That being said for simple 2.0 systems... room treatment and placement can largely eliminate the need for DSP. Carefully implemented DSP enhances sound. Yes a lot of AVR you can turn off its internal DSP/bass management using Pure Direct mode.

If one turns off DSP it means only one thing - one does not know how to use it - at one's own peril.

 

[Dimitrov]

So an AVR in stereo direct mode is functionally a stereo integrated amplifier. Am I correct in saying that the presence of surround circuitry does not alter the stereo signal path? But then in what way are stereo amps superior apart from power supplies? Having looked at some bench test results, I can go along with the idea that stereo amps might deliver more clean power at a particular price point. Maybe they have lower noise, but is that it?

Is there anything else I've missed? AVR's have a pure direct mode. So what would the stereo amp do better than the AVR, assuming you're not exceeding the AVR's power limits (excluding bass management and room correction)?

 

[voodooless]

So what would the stereo amp do better than the AVR, assuming you're not exceeding the AVR's power limits (excluding bass management and room correction)?

Nothing audible.

AVR amps are super cost optimized parts. They typically spend less than $€£ 10 per channel on parts, and with that try to get the best possible performance while keeping heat down enough to survive next to each other in the enclosure. Those designs are often decades old, fine tuned and refined in every new generation of AVR. It’s really pretty amazing what they squeeze out of those cheap, single layer, through hole PCBs.

 

[Oddball]

So an AVR in stereo direct mode is functionally a stereo integrated amplifier. Am I correct in saying that the presence of surround circuitry does not alter the stereo signal path? But then in what way are stereo amps superior apart from power supplies? Having looked at some bench test results, I can go along with the idea that stereo amps might deliver more clean power at a particular price point. Maybe they have lower noise, but is that it?

Is there anything else I've missed? AVR's have a pure direct mode. So what would the stereo amp do better than the AVR, assuming you're not exceeding the AVR's power limits (excluding bass management and room correction)?

You miss pretty much everything. At the level you are discussing the topic, not much more to say. Good luck with your quest to do something?

 

[Ruediger]

So an AVR in stereo direct mode is functionally a stereo integrated amplifier. Am I correct in saying that the presence of surround circuitry does not alter the stereo signal path? But then in what way are stereo amps superior apart from power supplies? Having looked at some bench test results, I can go along with the idea that stereo amps might deliver more clean power at a particular price point. Maybe they have lower noise, but is that it?

Is there anything else I've missed? AVR's have a pure direct mode. So what would the stereo amp do better than the AVR, assuming you're not exceeding the AVR's power limits (excluding bass management and room correction)?

The meaning of pure direct or similar is different per manufacturer.

It also takes out of the path what's not needed and can actually be taken out. It doesn't re-wire the device.

I would not compare that with a non-AVR at all.

 

[popej]

But then in what way are stereo amps superior apart from power supplies?

Actually power supply in an AVR is quite oversized for stereo playback.

 

[Talisman]

I switched from a system with Advance Acoustics preamp and power amp to an AVC X3800H and I only had enormous benefits, I wouldn't go back

 

[Oddball]

The meaning of pure direct or similar is different per manufacturer.

It also takes out of the path what's not needed and can actually be taken out. It doesn't re-wire the device.

I would not compare that with a non-AVR at all.

Not needed? Perhaps for you - at your own peril. And just curious what exactly are you comparing?

 

[Miker 1102]

Sigberg Audio Saranna, Kii Audio THREE + BXT, Dutch & Dutch 8c, Genelec, Meridian DSP Loudspeakers are all very nice endgame level speakers. All have built-in DSP. DSP gets a bad rep because it use to be bad, is used incorrectly, and mass-market auto room corrections prioritize convenience.

That being said for simple 2.0 systems... room treatment and placement can largely eliminate the need for DSP. Carefully implemented DSP enhances sound. Yes a lot of AVR you can turn off its internal DSP/bass management using Pure Direct mode.

Placement and room treatment? DSP in ART had put that rabbit hole to bed according to lot of people. Again, I just have not seen much of a real argument against modern day avrs except getting better sinad which is not audible. 900 in room correction vs how much spent in acoustic treament? I think its preference at this point.

 

[thcdru2k]

Placement and room treatment? DSP in ART had put that rabbit hole to bed according to lot of people. Again, I just have not seen much of a real argument against modern day avrs except getting better sinad which is not audible. 900 in room correction vs how much spent in acoustic treament? I think its preference at this point.

Bit of an overstatement...if placement and timing didn’t matter, ART wouldn’t need multiple speakers and complex optimization but I am defending ART/DSP so not sure what you are getting at. I am all for it.

 

[Dimitrov]

You miss pretty much everything. At the level you are discussing the topic, not much more to say. Good luck with your quest to do something?

I don't like your tone. I've been respectful, I'm simply asking questions because I'm not sure. You're giving off an attitude and it's not appreciated. I'm here to learn more, not be berated by you.

 

[Oddball]

I don't like your tone. I've been respectful, I'm simply asking questions because I'm not sure. You're giving off an attitude and it's not appreciated. I'm here to learn more, not be berated by you.

Sincere apologies - and best of luck.

 

[Juhazi]

I don't like your tone. I've been respectful, I'm simply asking questions because I'm not sure. You're giving off an attitude and it's not appreciated. I'm here to learn more, not be berated by you.

Sorry, but you keep on asking same question over and over again. And get same answers over and over again.

Only you can make the final decision that satisfies you. Perhaps play safe and buy both! That's what most of us here have done and use - I have tube pre, classA, classAB, class D amps, integrated stereo amps and receivers, integrated AVRs, several active multiway speakers with dsp. (several systems at same time and over 50 years). All work well and sound transparent and have competent power.

AVRs have best and most versatile UI, but often factory presets are strange (like TVs having oversaturated colors and contrast). Speakers and room make setups sound different.