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AVR vs amp speaker measurement

delta76

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I have two big tower/floorstanding speakers, and most people were saying "you need a beefy amp to make them sing". I'm itchy to buy an amp as suggested, but I wonder if there have been any speaker measurements for comparison? I know Amir uses some very beefy amp (like 1000w?) to drive the speakers when he reviews them, just to make sure amp is not a limiting factor (which makes totally sense). but how's about same speaker, different amps/avrs? how would the amps make a difference in perf score?
 

Katji

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In this context, AVR is amplifier. Same applies: Is it [2 channels, L & R] suitable to drive the speakers, power/current/Watts.

two big tower/floorstanding speakers, and most people were saying "you need a beefy amp to make them sing".
It depends on speaker power requurement, not on size per se. Many standmount speakers require more powerful amps. Big floorstanding speaker might have high efficiency drivers and so require less powerful amplifier.
 
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BDWoody

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What is the sensitivity of your speakers?
 
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delta76

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In this context, AVR is amplifier. Same applies: Is it [2 channels, L & R] suitable to drive the speakers, power/current/Watts.


It depends on speaker power requurement, not on size per se. Many standmount speakers requite more powerful amps. Big floorstanding speaker might have high efficiency drivers and so require less powerful amplifier.
yes, however AVR builtin amp is usually considered weaker/less "clean" to dedicated amp. or so I was told.

What is the sensitivity of your speakers?
official number is 92.5dB, but I think it was measured to be 88dB or so.

I'm interested in the "bigger picture" here. We are told that we need beefy amp for big speakers, to get "the best out of them". I wonder if that is actually true (i.e. a better amp actually makes a difference in perf score), or if it just mean for the max level
 

Katji

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yes, however AVR builtin amp is usually considered weaker/less "clean" to dedicated amp. or so I was told.
They usually are but nevertheless, that same^^^ still applies. Either suitable [power] or not.

We are told that we need beefy amp for big speakers, to get "the best out of them". I wonder if that is actually true (i.e. a better amp actually makes a difference in perf score), or if it just mean for the max level
Again, it depends on the speakers. Sensitivity /impedance, combination of drivers+crossover. Not on the size.

,,,to get "the best out of them"
...means able to manage loud, + bass.
 
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delta76

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They usually are but nevertheless, that same^^^ still applies. Either suitable [power] or not.


Again, it depends on the speakers. Sensitivity /impedance, combination of drivers+crossover. Not on the size.
ok, let's ignore size for a moment (although bookshelf usually needs 20-100w as per spec, while tower needs 50-300w spec, so size definitely matters). on same speaker that has "Recommended power" to be 50-300w, is there a difference driving it by a AVR with 120w per channel, compared to a stereo amp with 120wpc, compared to a stereo amp with 350wpc? Is it measurable at normal listening level, or only at max level where the avr and weaker amp "clipping" ? - that's my question
 

BDWoody

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Is it measurable at normal listening level, or only at max level where the avr and weaker amp "clipping" ? - that's my question

Under clipping level most would be very hard pressed to hear any difference.
 

morpheusX

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As mentioned, it depends on several factors.

Here's an example with these mammoth JTR NOESIS 210HT speakers, which have 95db sensibility and are rated up to 2000 watts RMS.
Using this calculator, with just 80W, at 3m, if placed in corners, will produce 110db, which approaches earing loss levels.
 

DonH56

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I'm interested in the "bigger picture" here. We are told that we need beefy amp for big speakers, to get "the best out of them". I wonder if that is actually true (i.e. a better amp actually makes a difference in perf score), or if it just mean for the max level
There is no one answer to this. IME the need for an external amplifier is generally overblown; people always think "bigger is better". Most people do not know how much power they actually need; again IME they tend to greatly overestimate their average power use, but underestimate the peak ratio. You can look at an SPL calculator like this to get a rough idea how much power you use: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html -- to me, 80 dB average is very loud and I am closer to 70 dB. I think a lot of people are only using a watt or two on average, so an AVR that can produce peaks of ~50-100 W is plenty. But it depends upon the speakers, how far away they are from them, room treatment (if any), and preferred loudness (etc.) A speaker's "recommended power" is almost meaningless as the need depends very much on your specific requirements.

Besides pure power (watt) needs, an external amp may offer lower output impedance, which might provide better frequency response with your speakers since the amp acts more like a pure (ideal) voltage source. That depends upon the speaker's impedance, and a better amp that provides flatter response may or may not be something you like; it can change the frequency response, but even if the change is more accurate, you might not like it as much. There is an ASR article on that, see the link to techie articles in my signature. For SS amps, the difference tends to be minimal, as the output impedance is low enough to drive almost any speaker without significant deviation.

Noise (SNR) is another factor that can matter. If you have highly-sensitive speakers, they will be more sensitive to noise from the signal chain, including the amplifier (which tends to have the lowest SNR of the components in the audio chain). Many folk have added a powerful amplifier only to find that, not only do they not really need all that power, but the added power comes with higher noise.

Bias leads people to believe the sound is better with a bigger amp. By and large blind testing is needed to prove or disprove that. Most people, when they get an amp, expect improvement and so that is what they hear. They also tend to listen louder, especially at first, and louder does sound better so they immediately decide the amp improved things even though turning their AVR up a hair would achieve the same effect.

There are cases where an amp can help, such as speakers that are very insensitive, have very low impedance, or both, and/or are far away from the listener. But I tend to think the majority of amplifiers added to AVRs are due to marketing and desire rather than real need.

IME/IMO/FWIWFM/etc. - Don
 
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diablo

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Around 2010 I had a cinema system using an Onkyo AVR. I bought some XTZ99.26/25s for the fronts and the amp really struggled to drive them. I them upgraded the crossovers which made the speakers closer to 4 Ohms which made matters worse. Then bought an Anthem which drove the speakers just fine. Any Yamaha AVR or amp will drive them as well. So depends..

Are your speakers low impedance?
 
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delta76

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There is no one answer to this. IME the need for an external amplifier is generally overblown; people always think "bigger is better". Most people do not know how much power they actually need; again IME they tend to greatly overestimate their average power use, but underestimate the peak ratio. You can look at an SPL calculator like this to get a rough idea how much power you use: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html -- to me, 80 dB average is very loud and I am closer to 70 dB. I think a lot of people are only using a watt or two on average, so an AVR that can produce peaks of ~50-100 W is plenty. But it depends upon the speakers, how far away they are from them, room treatment (if any), and preferred loudness (etc.) A speaker's "recommended power" is almost meaningless as the need depends very much on your specific requirements.

Besides pure power (watt) needs, an external amp may offer lower output impedance, which might provide better frequency response with your speakers since the amp acts more like a pure (ideal) voltage source. That depends upon the speaker's impedance, and a better amp that provides flatter response may or may not be something you like; it can change the frequency response, but even if the change is more accurate, you might not like it as much. There is an ASR article on that, see the link to techie articles in my signature. For SS amps, the difference tends to be minimal, as the output impedance is low enough to drive almost any speaker without significant deviation.

Noise (SNR) is another factor that can matter. If you have highly-sensitive speakers, they will be more sensitive to noise from the signal chain, including the amplifier (which tends to have the lowest SNR of the components in the audio chain). Many folk have added a powerful amplifier only to find that, not only do they not really need all that power, but the added power comes with higher noise.

Bias leads people to believe the sound is better with a bigger amp. By and large blind testing is needed to prove or disprove that. Most people, when they get an amp, expect improvement and so that is what they hear. They also tend to listen louder, especially at first, and louder does sound better so they immediately decide the amp improved things even though turning their AVR up a hair would achieve the same effect.

There are cases where an amp can help, such as speakers that are very insensitive, have very low impedance, or both. But I tend to think the majority of amplifiers added to AVRs are due to marketing and desire rather than real need.

IME/IMO/FWIWFM/etc. - Don
wow - thanks. yeah I just tried to measure how loud I am playing and it's well below 80dB at 1m (usually 65-70dB). I usually have either kids playing before the speakers, or they are sleeping, no reason/ability to play loud.
Around 2010 I had a cinema system using an Onkyo AVR. I bought some XTZ99.26/25s for the fronts and the amp really struggled to drive them. I them upgraded the crossovers which made the speakers closer to 4 Ohms which made matters worse. Then bought an Anthem which drove the speakers just fine. Any Yamaha AVR or amp will drive them as well. So depends..

Are your speakers low impedance?
not low per se. it's nominal 8ohm but can dip to 2.5 ohm (misread your question at first)
 
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DonH56

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One other thing to realize is that power and hearing is a logarithmic function:

+1 dB is barely noticeable when changing the volume and takes about 26% more power
+3 dB is about the level most folk bump the volume to make it "a little bit louder", and takes twice the power
+6 dB is a fairly big increase in volume and takes 4x the power
+10 dB sounds twice as loud and takes ten times the power
+17 dB is about the largest peak-to-average level found in music (more than typical compressed recordings) and is a power factor of 50x
+20 dB is about the largest peak-to-average level of high-dynamic-range movies and is a power ratio of 100:1

HTH - Don
 
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diablo

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wow - thanks. yeah I just tried to measure how loud I am playing and it's well below 80dB at 1m (usually 65-70dB). I usually have either kids playing before the speakers, or they are sleeping, no reason/ability to play loud.

not low per se. it's nominal 8ohm but can dip to 2.5 ohm (misread your question at first)
My lounge speakers are given as 4-8 Ohms, have a quoted efficiency of 88dB (but they are less than that), power rating is 200 watt long term, 550 watt short term. I'm driving them with a Yamaha 803 amp at the moment but they happily work off my AVR.

Though my point here is that I have a mains power meter on the amps and if I turn up the volume as high as I can ever listen the power goes up by about 20 watts. :) That's perhaps mainly due to the subwoofer doing the hard lifting - though that doesn't take masses of power either.
 
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delta76

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Yeah I think so too, my setup would never go more than 20w per channel, at least until I have a dedicated room for HT with good sound isolation. My wonder has been if an amp can provide that 20w better than an AVR, and the answer is very likely "no". As long as the AVR is a good one when it comes to amplification (Denon x3700/x4700 for example), it does not really matter.

I can be at peace now I suppose.
 

Plcamp

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+17 dB is about the largest peak-to-average level found in music (more than typical compressed recordings) and is a power factor of 50x
Interesting to put it that way.

I drive a power amp (fully driven at -3db) from an e30 DAC, and the loudest I ever listen is at -20db, so I have power headroom of 50x and never need worry about sufficient power. With an 85W amp driving Paradigm Studio 100’s. LP is about 3m away.
 

DVDdoug

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I have two big tower/floorstanding speakers, and most people were saying "you need a beefy amp to make them sing".
It's too bad that power meters (you'd want a peak power meter) or clipping indicators are so rare. :( Maybe that's because most people would realize that they don't need lots of power and that would mess-up their marketing...

If you're not hearing distortion when you turn it up, you are probably fine. And if you can go louder than you want to listen without distortion that proves your amplifier (or the amp in your AVR) has headroom.

Or, for less than $100 you can get an SPL meter. Once you know how loud you're listening you can play around with the calculator Don linked to.

It DOES get complicated because of the "logarithmic thing"... If you need to go louder you may need a LOT MORE power. And then your speakers need to handle a lot more power too.

With a subwoofer you almost can't have too much power! Our hearing isn't as sensitive at low frequencies and woofers & subwoofers that go very-low in frequency tend to be less efficient/sensitive. But, most home theater subwoofers are active with their own built-in amp.

however AVR builtin amp is usually considered weaker
Yes, you CAN buy a power amp with more power than any AVR... But, my lower-end AVR is rated for 80W X 5 channels! You probably won't find one with less power. Even 80W X 2 is enough for most "home listening" and my setup is loud enough to annoy my neighbors!!! (Actually, I don't play it that loud but it does go loud enough that it would bother me if it were their music.)

less "clean" to dedicated amp. or so I was told.
Modern solid state amplifiers stay "clean" as long as they are not clipping. If it's not broken or overdriven you're not going to get audible distortion. And assume no clipping, speakers have more distortion than amplifiers.
 
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