AVR Upmixer Behavior with 5.1 System on 5.1 Tracks

[Soundmixer]

First of all, take it down a notch -- I never said Atmos does the pulling. I said an Atmos signal "TELLS" a processor to take overhead cues from a TrueHD core. There is a TrueHD core, in which spatial cues are imbedded, and these are derived from the TrueHD mix when a processor has been configured so that it knows overhead channels are in place. In turn, the AVR/processor reads "Atmos" on the display via the bitstreamed signal from the source.

First, perhaps you should reduce your sensitivity rather than asking me to take it down a notch! Second, there is no such thing as an Atmos signal. It is called metadata. The metadata tells the renderer where to position the object (that is the easy explanation; it is more complicated than that) based on how many overhead speakers you have. Once again, you are codecsplainin, and once again, I have been mastering and encoding movies on disc since 1998, so there is nothing you can explain to me that I don't already know.


"Atmos merely tells a processor to "pull" additional overhead cues from the base TrueHD signal; but you're right about Dolby TrueHD being correctly shown when there's no overheads"

Atmos does not tell a processor anything. The metadata within the core track carries the position, movement, automation, and object parameters (large or small object, bass managed or not, limited or not), and the renderer uses all of this data to properly place or move the object into its proper place within a 3D space. The word "pull" is a poor usage in this case, and place or move would be much better.

 

[Soundmixer]

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[J. Lohmann]

If you find another way other than just turning it off let me know

I don't believe there is.

 

[J. Lohmann]

First, perhaps you should reduce your sensitivity rather than asking me to take it down a notch! Second, there is no such thing as an Atmos signal. It is called metadata. The metadata tells the renderer where to position the object (that is the easy explanation; it is more complicated than that) based on how many overhead speakers you have. Once again, you are codecsplainin, and once again, I have been mastering and encoding movies on disc since 1998, so there is nothing you can explain to me that I don't already know.


"Atmos merely tells a processor to "pull" additional overhead cues from the base TrueHD signal; but you're right about Dolby TrueHD being correctly shown when there's no overheads"

Atmos does not tell a processor anything. The metadata within the core track carries the position, movement, automation, and object parameters (large or small object, bass managed or not, limited or not), and the renderer uses all of this data to properly place or move the object into its proper place within a 3D space. The word "pull" is a poor usage in this case, and place or move would be much better.

You tell me to adjust my sensitivity instead of acknowledging that your response was aggressive? LMAO -- okay. Self-reflection doesn't seem to be in your DNA.

Your "experience" in this field doesn't impress me one iota, so I don't know why you keep throwing it in my face -- and you keep taking my quote out of context, going on to argue that I was "wrong" about that one word (when I explained how you got my quote wrong to begin with).

Incredible.

You have the distinction of being the first on my ignore list here -- congrats.

 

[J. Lohmann]

If you find another way other than just turning it off let me know

For whatever it's worth, someone on another forum in a Denon thread told me this:

That happened to me a few months ago it was really annoying as I had set it to automatically update when not in use, I immediately turned off the automatic update feature and now I get on-screen prompts when there is an update so do it at a more convenient time instead of in the middle of what I'm watching.

Apparently, if you turn the auto update off, there are on-screen prompts that alert you to when an update is available so you can do it at your leisure. I am unsure if that will work for me, as I don't run the AVR's video out to my display...

 

[Laika2]

For whatever it's worth, someone on another forum in a Denon thread told me this:

That happened to me a few months ago it was really annoying as I had set it to automatically update when not in use, I immediately turned off the automatic update feature and now I get on-screen prompts when there is an update so do it at a more convenient time instead of in the middle of what I'm watching.

Apparently, if you turn the auto update off, there are on-screen prompts that alert you to when an update is available so you can do it at your leisure. I am unsure if that will work for me, as I don't run the AVR's video out to my display...

If no OSD it won't work, at least I don't remember any audio prompt, fairly sure it's just a OSD, that's what I remember. Prompt it visual only I am 99% positive.

 

[J. Lohmann]

If no OSD it won't work, at least I don't remember any audio prompt, fairly sure it's just a OSD, that's what I remember. Prompt it visual only I am 99% positive.

If that's true, then it won't work for me. Bummer.

 

[J. Lohmann]

What's ironic is that my 2800 just performed an auto update the other night, shutting the amp off right when I was in the middle of watching something.

Most (if not all) of these updates are wasted on me, personally, as I don't stream anything through the AVR or use most of the features everyone seems to take advantage of with these somewhat complex devices; in fact, I only have one source plugged into my HT AVR, which is a 4K Blu-ray player.

I wish they'd issue an update that would correct for the upmixer designations being illuminated when they're not in use (like in my case, with running a 5.1 signal through a 5.1 setup), but that's probably not going to happen, as there would logistically need to be a way for the processor to "remember" which codecs need to be applied to what signal and channel count. Things are much more complicated with spatial audio now, but it could all be fixed by implementing one of the old "Sound Mode Default" menus from previous AVRs.

 

[Chrispy]

For whatever it's worth, someone on another forum in a Denon thread told me this:

That happened to me a few months ago it was really annoying as I had set it to automatically update when not in use, I immediately turned off the automatic update feature and now I get on-screen prompts when there is an update so do it at a more convenient time instead of in the middle of what I'm watching.

Apparently, if you turn the auto update off, there are on-screen prompts that alert you to when an update is available so you can do it at your leisure. I am unsure if that will work for me, as I don't run the AVR's video out to my display...

That is what I do....and now that you mention it it has been a while since there was any such alert. Most of them have been HEOS related IIRC.....and this seems to confirm https://support.denon.com/app/answe...latest-heos-app-and-firmware-update-available

 

[Soundmixer]

You tell me to adjust my sensitivity instead of acknowledging that your response was aggressive? LMAO -- okay. Self-reflection doesn't seem to be in your DNA.

Your "experience" in this field doesn't impress me one iota, so I don't know why you keep throwing it in my face -- and you keep taking my quote out of context, going on to argue that I was "wrong" about that one word (when I explained how you got my quote wrong to begin with).

Incredible.

You have the distinction of being the first on my ignore list here -- congrats.

Yes, I asked you to adjust your sensitivity because my response was not aggressive; you didn't like being corrected.

I am not here to impress anyone. However, when a statement is so wrong, it begs to be corrected. You did this twice, and twice you got corrected. The fact that you cannot take correction is telling, and your problem to deal with.

Don't care if you ignore me, but I'm going to still correct something when it needs correction.

 

[Andysu]

Well, the thing is, these manufacturers assume every setup supports Atmos now (or, at the very least, 7.1), which is why the 5.1 models that are left in the lineups are REALLY cheap and stripped -- of power, features and build. In reality, a 5.1 AVR is all we personally need, but their build and specs are so poor, there's no way any of them would do any good for powering, at the very least, our Polk RTi12 towers up front.

I hate this Denon so much that I am seriously considering reinstalling my old Onkyo, and living with the shortcomings (no processing power to properly matrix 2.0 DTS-HD signals, a malfunctioning HDMI MONITOR out port, no way to change the preferred HDMI input for my 4K BD player to anything other than "DVD," etc.). It was so much more simple to use compared to this X2800, and didn't have the added confusion of seeing the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixer designations on the display when they're not active.

not being nasty here but i agree , i also hate my stormaudio isp32 mk3 and i said it many times how i regret buying it and how the frence support team don't want to help me , because i'm of poor class , and not a rich snob like the rest , if it packs up i never care to get it fixed and never buy stormaudio again and certainly not even trinnov it has delay time issues , i'd rig the denon 8500h back up , least it never had audio dropouts not a single once , the denon now serves as video processor for laserdisc or vhs and Dolby Lt Rt outputs via zone 2 and zone 3 that connect to my Dolby Stereo CP200 and to Sony SDDS to the stormaudio

i wouldn't have touched that denon atmos with a barge pole , its cheap gonna be hard to get least $450 for it , its rubbish it has no internal 8ch rca inputs its more less a bare bones cheap dennon

i can see what your after , just save up be patient you'll get that dream avr , well even my stormaudio isp32 mk3 is rubbish junk , the times it has audio dropouts is staggering and i have to switch it off , and switch back on to get a Dolby or dts locked signal on the processor

as ex retired projectionist i can see what your after , but be honest and transparent with me ,
why do you want a home thesatre ?
what cinema do you regularly go to ?
what was first you heard , mono or i assume Dolby digital/dts/sdds maybe Dolby SR , back in the 1990's ?

i read though the pages not memorised all expect the " filmmixer " guy , speakers home theatre speakers not worth touching , if your that hungry for it , 2nd hand on , ebay , JBL professional cinema speakers depending on the model past present , past ones are good enough , thou since 2020 covid and prices going up extremely high but once while cheap ones show up , ( once in a while )

if your room is larger than mine , JBL 4673A LCR go for it they'll do fine with ( 2nd hand ) behringer DCX 2496 behringer nx1000 or 3000 would be more than enough power for LF bass cabs and HF horns
surrounds or there just a speaker , JBL 83 series 8330 mkI mk2 , 8333 , 8330A 8340 thou heavy and maybe 8340A 8350 , ( strongly 8330 mk1 2 or 8330A ) they often show up cheap and get them as arrays so you do proper surround field configuration that can be wildly used Dolby Stereo 4.2.4 matrix

JBL 4645 sub , 4645b 4645c be enough LFE.1 to care for

there now your sorted on the speakers same or most same used on dub stages to cinemas , watch the ebay

 

[Andysu]

What's ironic is that my 2800 just performed an auto update the other night, shutting the amp off right when I was in the middle of watching something.

Most (if not all) of these updates are wasted on me, personally, as I don't stream anything through the AVR or use most of the features everyone seems to take advantage of with these somewhat complex devices; in fact, I only have one source plugged into my HT AVR, which is a 4K Blu-ray player.

I wish they'd issue an update that would correct for the upmixer designations being illuminated when they're not in use (like in my case, with running a 5.1 signal through a 5.1 setup), but that's probably not going to happen, as there would logistically need to be a way for the processor to "remember" which codecs need to be applied to what signal and channel count. Things are much more complicated with spatial audio now, but it could all be fixed by implementing one of the old "Sound Mode Default" menus from previouis AVRs.

i agree i found updates for denon 8500h to be useless , oh the one that fixed the Dolby labs blunder of upmixer where it was leaking centre + signal everywhere that took year so for firmware , annoying , the rest of updates useless

stormaudio updates seem to be okay but still , yeah would i endorse a stormaudio does it work ? it has audio dropouts i mentioned that already

ask me next time buying i give honest answer if its junk for the cat litter box or worth buying

 

[J. Lohmann]

What's ironic is that my 2800 just performed an auto update the other night, shutting the amp off right when I was in the middle of watching something.

Most (if not all) of these updates are wasted on me, personally, as I don't stream anything through the AVR or use most of the features everyone seems to take advantage of with these somewhat complex devices; in fact, I only have one source plugged into my HT AVR, which is a 4K Blu-ray player.

I wish they'd issue an update that would correct for the upmixer designations being illuminated when they're not in use (like in my case, with running a 5.1 signal through a 5.1 setup), but that's probably not going to happen, as there would logistically need to be a way for the processor to "remember" which codecs need to be applied to what signal and channel count. Things are much more complicated with spatial audio now, but it could all be fixed by implementing one of the old "Sound Mode Default" menus from previous AVRs.

Edited for spelling correction...

 

[J. Lohmann]

not being nasty here but i agree , i also hate my stormaudio isp32 mk3 and i said it many times how i regret buying it and how the frence support team don't want to help me , because i'm of poor class , and not a rich snob like the rest , if it packs up i never care to get it fixed and never buy stormaudio again and certainly not even trinnov it has delay time issues , i'd rig the denon 8500h back up , least it never had audio dropouts not a single once , the denon now serves as video processor for laserdisc or vhs and Dolby Lt Rt outputs via zone 2 and zone 3 that connect to my Dolby Stereo CP200 and to Sony SDDS to the stormaudio

i wouldn't have touched that denon atmos with a barge pole , its cheap gonna be hard to get least $450 for it , its rubbish it has no internal 8ch rca inputs its more less a bare bones cheap dennon

i can see what your after , just save up be patient you'll get that dream avr , well even my stormaudio isp32 mk3 is rubbish junk , the times it has audio dropouts is staggering and i have to switch it off , and switch back on to get a Dolby or dts locked signal on the processor

as ex retired projectionist i can see what your after , but be honest and transparent with me ,
why do you want a home thesatre ?
what cinema do you regularly go to ?
what was first you heard , mono or i assume Dolby digital/dts/sdds maybe Dolby SR , back in the 1990's ?

i read though the pages not memorised all expect the " filmmixer " guy , speakers home theatre speakers not worth touching , if your that hungry for it , 2nd hand on , ebay , JBL professional cinema speakers depending on the model past present , past ones are good enough , thou since 2020 covid and prices going up extremely high but once while cheap ones show up , ( once in a while )

if your room is larger than mine , JBL 4673A LCR go for it they'll do fine with ( 2nd hand ) behringer DCX 2496 behringer nx1000 or 3000 would be more than enough power for LF bass cabs and HF horns
surrounds or there just a speaker , JBL 83 series 8330 mkI mk2 , 8333 , 8330A 8340 thou heavy and maybe 8340A 8350 , ( strongly 8330 mk1 2 or 8330A ) they often show up cheap and get them as arrays so you do proper surround field configuration that can be wildly used Dolby Stereo 4.2.4 matrix

JBL 4645 sub , 4645b 4645c be enough LFE.1 to care for

there now your sorted on the speakers same or most same used on dub stages to cinemas , watch the ebay

View attachment 469475View attachment 469476

Andy,

Don't mean to sound forward here, but can you please explain what you're attempting to say above a bit more clearly?