AVR Upmixer Behavior with 5.1 System on 5.1 Tracks

[Chrispy]

Yes, Atmos is ALWAYS referring to the use of overheads. Without the overheads, you have Dolby TrueHD.

You mean Atmos on a bluray? What happens with streaming particularly?

 

[J. Lohmann]

OK Thank you very much, just ran through all the major soundfields, DTD and above and Dolby and above. "Speaker Visualizer" is turned off in all sound-fields. (if had spotted it it would have been turned off years ago, looks like I did.

Thanks for your help, it appears D/M removed the feature that let you avoid ATMOS, even though "Speaker Visualizer" is OFF it still often defaults to Dolby. Hey buddy, Glad it works on yours, no big deal on mine, just though I could get rid of a few button clicks on the remote. It's a 5 second thing to get to the right one.

No problem -- this is my first foray into using an Atmos-enabled AVR as well as a Denon product, so I'm not sure what they changed or didn't change. All I know is that I was told by a Denon/Marantz Tier 2 engineer I was put in touch with via email that by leaving Virtualizer OFF, the Atmos symbol will NOT display when the AVR is connected to a system with 5.1 channels or less -- instead, it drops back to the core TrueHD signal, which is what it does on my system (I see "DTHD" on the display when watching discs with Atmos soundtracks). From what I understand, leaving the Virtualizer ON engages the Dolby Surround upmixer to manipulate the audio on a non-Atmos system, which I DON'T want; further, I was told that DTS:X, on the other hand, WILL show on the display even with my 5.1 system because it works differently than Dolby Atmos.

At any rate, the point of the thread was to ask if anyone knows whether the sound is CHANGED by leaving the "+Upmixer" illuminated on the front panel of the Denons even though they're supposedly NOT being used in my situation -- that is, a 5.1 track playing through a 5.1 system.

 

[J. Lohmann]

As I stated above, you don't have Atmos without the overhead speakers. All you have is Dolby TrueHD. Dolby TrueHD does not use objects, and you can mix in Atmos without using objects. The use of objects is only necessary when you want to place an effect in a specific place within the soundfield.

Atmos merely tells a processor to "pull" additional overhead cues from the base TrueHD signal; but you're right about Dolby TrueHD being correctly shown when there's no overheads.

The bottom line is this:

If you have at least two overhead channels, configure the processor or AVR as such, and "Dolby Atmos" will show when such signals are bitstreamed from a source.

If you only have a 5.1 or lesser setup, configure the processor or AVR as such, and "Dolby Atmos" will only show if, on a Denon or Marantz, the "Speaker Virtualizer" is turned ON. If it's turned OFF, Atmos tracks will show as "DTHD" on the front display.

If you have a 5.1 setup with five bed-level speakers and want an "Atmos-like" experience, turn the Virtualizer ON; this will manipulate 5.1 and lower signals to simulate sound coming from above (in MY case, I already have in-ceiling speakers as surrounds, so using the Virtualizer would just make a mess of things).

 

[J. Lohmann]

I think Atmos isn't always referring to use of the overheads, its mostly a confusing term IMO. I'd like to see more details on just what it does with particular codecs, tho.

Please see my comments above; it IS referring to using the overheads when an AVR is correctly configured and receiving a bitstreamed Atmos signal from a source, and if the system HAS overheads. With a system that DOESN'T have overheads, the Atmos symbol can still light up if the Speaker Virtualizer is turned ON -- that's the idea of the Virtualizer, to simulate Atmos effects with systems that don't have physical overheads or up-firing modules.

With a system like MINE, which is 5.1 and using in-ceiling regular surrounds, I leave the Virtualizer OFF and I don't see "Atmos" on the front of the Denon, instead seeing "DTHD" for the TrueHD core.

 

[J. Lohmann]

Yeah might be a vendor thing. I have the JBL MA7100HP. By my understanding Atmos does not necessarily imply overhead speakers. It's just an object-based surround format that can have overhead channels. Could be wrong though.

Please see my comments above regarding how all this works by whether the Virtualizer is on or off...that seems to control when an AVR shows the "Atmos" symbol.

 

[Laika2]

No problem -- this is my first foray into using an Atmos-enabled AVR as well as a Denon product, so I'm not sure what they changed or didn't change. All I know is that I was told by a Denon/Marantz Tier 2 engineer I was put in touch with via email that by leaving Virtualizer OFF, the Atmos symbol will NOT display when the AVR is connected to a system with 5.1 channels or less -- instead, it drops back to the core TrueHD signal, which is what it does on my system (I see "DTHD" on the display when watching discs with Atmos soundtracks). From what I understand, leaving the Virtualizer ON engages the Dolby Surround upmixer to manipulate the audio on a non-Atmos system, which I DON'T want; further, I was told that DTS:X, on the other hand, WILL show on the display even with my 5.1 system because it works differently than Dolby Atmos.

At any rate, the point of the thread was to ask if anyone knows whether the sound is CHANGED by leaving the "+Upmixer" illuminated on the front panel of the Denons even though they're supposedly NOT being used in my situation -- that is, a 5.1 track playing through a 5.1 system.

Thanks, My up-mixers are off but still defaults to Atmos. The only thing I can see but not always that would add extra bass is a ATMOS soundtrack with a 5.1 base layer will matrix the far rears in my 7.1 Since those are matrixed (The old DD+ another soundfield applied to the matrix rears.)

Who knows, the ATMOS default seems like a glitch in my receiver, easily fixed with a few harmony button pushes so no big deal. I'm happy, not a big deal without a easy fix, seems like I could spend alot of googling instead of just hitting two extra buttons. (I have been through every menu and sub menu)

I'm good, If I run across a fix I will try it but it's such a small issue that I would rather enjoy my system than hunt for a solution to a problem that is the most minor of annoyances. (right now my focus is on DIRAC on my other system, that's high priority right now.)

PS I have received so much false info from D/M. I now longer call them. On my Old Denon 6700 I wanted to hook up some vintage region free DVD players to watch other zones, Had 4, name brands, 2 Yamahas, 1 Sony and a Denon. They had no HDMI and did not convert through the receiver, they hooked with those old red, green, blue cables (composite, Component)? and a optical cable for sound. They had me hook all four up change the upmixer settings for non hdmi. link the video cable to the sound cable in the reciver. ALL FAILED. I was told they were not compatible, he even claimed he had them on the list. Looked at it on a weekend, had them all working in 2 hours. There was a setting in the upmixer that he told me not to touch, leave it off, neever use it. SO of course it's the last thing try and boom all my old DVD players work fine.

Hope others have better experences with tech support but 7 D/M recvievers in 20 years, at least 5 calls to tech support, always a walk through that does ot fix the issue, but is fixed by me latter in trouble shooting.

It's boards like this where the answers come from often, many having been through the same problem. This place is great.

Thanks
Have a great day buddy and a better weekend,

 

[J. Lohmann]

Thanks, My up-mixers are off but still defaults to Atmos. The only thing I can see but not always that would add extra bass is a ATMOS soundtrack with a 5.1 base layer will matrix the far rears in my 7.1 Since those are matrixed (The old DD+ another soundfield applied to the matrix rears.)

Who knows, the ATMOS default seems like a glitch in my receiver, easily fixed with a few harmony button pushes so no big deal. I'm happy, not a big deal without a easy fix, seems like I could spend alot of googling instead of just hitting two extra buttons. (I have been through every menu and sub menu)

I'm good, If I run across a fix I will try it but it's such a small issue that I would rather enjoy my system than hunt for a solution to a problem that is the most minor of annoyances. (right now my focus is on DIRAC on my other system, that's high priority right now.)

PS I have received so much false info from D/M. I now longer call them. On my Old Denon 6700 I wanted to hook up some vintage region free DVD players to watch other zones, Had 4, name brands, 2 Yamahas, 1 Sony and a Denon. They had no HDMI and did not convert through the receiver, they hooked with those old red, green, blue cables (composite, Component)? and a optical cable for sound. They had me hook all four up change the upmixer settings for non hdmi. link the video cable to the sound cable in the reciver. ALL FAILED. I was told they were not compatible, he even claimed he had them on the list. Looked at it on a weekend, had them all working in 2 hours. There was a setting in the upmixer that he told me not to touch, leave it off, neever use it. SO of course it's the last thing try and boom all my old DVD players work fine.

Hope others have better experences with tech support but 7 D/M recvievers in 20 years, at least 5 calls to tech support, always a walk through that does ot fix the issue, but is fixed by me latter in trouble shooting.

It's boards like this where the answers come from often, many having been through the same problem. This place is great.

Thanks
Have a great day buddy and a better weekend,

Glad I could help, at least a little...what's ironic is that I started this thread hoping someone could help ME with a question I had about all of this....

But with regard to the issue you're having with Atmos and always showing on the front panel...if I understand you correctly, even if you turn the Virtualizer OFF, it STILL shows Atmos on the display? Are you running a 5.1 system? Please forgive me if you explained this already...

 

[Sal1950]

I think Atmos isn't always referring to use of the overheads, its mostly a confusing term IMO. I'd like to see more details on just what it does with particular codecs, tho.

Right, it's referring to the codec, if it is in the meta-data of your source material.

Yes, Atmos is ALWAYS referring to the use of overheads. Without the overheads, you have Dolby TrueHD.

No, you could be listening to a Atmos source using a Atmos "enabled" sound bar, headphones, a few others.

The use of overheads can also be used for codecs other than Atmos, like DTS-X, Auro, Sony360, and others coming wanting to jump on the immersive music bandwagon

Thanks for your help, it appears D/M removed the feature that let you avoid ATMOS, even though "Speaker Visualizer" is OFF it still often defaults to Dolby.

Defaults to Dolby,or Atmos ?
It should default to Dolby, but not to Atmos.

Thanks, My up-mixers are off but still defaults to Atmos. The only thing I can see but not always that would add extra bass is a ATMOS soundtrack with a 5.1 base layer will matrix the far rears in my 7.1 Since those are matrixed (The old DD+ another soundfield applied to the matrix rears.)

Have you tried some tricks like unplugging the AVR for a bit, or doing a full reset?
AFAIK, your your AVR should work like I and a few others have mentioned with Virtuizer off. If it still doesn't maybe some flag is stuck in it's memory.
Or ask over a AVS where there's a huge base of multich users. Still possible theres another flag besides Speaker Visualizer screwing things up?

Fair, I'm pushing a few more years but ownership does not equal knowledge.

BTW, I've been running a surround system starting with Quad in 1978.

 

[Chrispy]

Please see my comments above; it IS referring to using the overheads when an AVR is correctly configured and receiving a bitstreamed Atmos signal from a source, and if the system HAS overheads. With a system that DOESN'T have overheads, the Atmos symbol can still light up if the Speaker Virtualizer is turned ON -- that's the idea of the Virtualizer, to simulate Atmos effects with systems that don't have physical overheads or up-firing modules.

With a system like MINE, which is 5.1 and using in-ceiling regular surrounds, I leave the Virtualizer OFF and I don't see "Atmos" on the front of the Denon, instead seeing "DTHD" for the TrueHD core.

I meant using non-existent overheads....don't use the virtualizer, tho.

 

[Soundmixer]

Right, it's referring to the codec, if it is in the meta-data of your source material.


No, you could be listening to a Atmos source using a Atmos "enabled" sound bar, headphones, a few others.

The use of overheads can also be used for codecs other than Atmos, like DTS-X, Auro, Sony360, and others coming wanting to jump on the immersive music bandwagon


Defaults to Dolby,or Atmos ?
It should default to Dolby, but not to Atmos.


Have you tried some tricks like unplugging the AVR for a bit, or doing a full reset?
AFAIK, your your AVR should work like I and a few others have mentioned with Virtuizer off. If it still doesn't maybe some flag is stuck in it's memory.
Or ask over a AVS where there's a huge base of multich users. Still possible theres another flag besides Speaker Visualizer screwing things up?


BTW, I've been running a surround system starting with Quad in 1978.

"
No, you could be listening to a Atmos source using a Atmos "enabled" sound bar, headphones, a few others.

The use of overheads can also be used for codecs other than Atmos, like DTS-X, Auro, Sony360, and others coming wanting to jump on the immersive music bandwagon"

Atmos soundbars and headphones are an afterthought, and Atmos was not truly designed for either. Without ceiling-mounted speakers, you don't have Atmos. Atmos is mixed and mastered for an Atmos speaker setup. Nobody mixes Atmos movie soundtracks for soundbars or headphones.

 

[Soundmixer]

You mean Atmos on a bluray? What happens with streaming particularly?

Both streaming and discs are encoded for overhead speakers.

 

[Chrispy]

Both streaming and discs are encoded for overhead speakers.

Meant more what codec does it default to with various streaming services since it can't be Dolby TrueHD.... (at least am unaware of anyone streaming in Dolby TrueHD)

 

[Soundmixer]

Meant more what codec does it default to since it can't be Dolby TrueHD....

I don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Chrispy]

I don't know what you are talking about.

Atmos streams that are not lossless. Dolby Digital Plus at best, sometimes a 2ch service.

 

[Soundmixer]

Atmos streams that are not lossless. Dolby Digital Plus at best, sometimes a 2ch service.

All Atmos STREAMS are lossy, whether Atmos or not. Two-channel music services usually use FLAC, and if you want to encode a stereo soundtrack, you use DD+ to save bandwidth, or you can encode it as a lossless Dolby TrueHD or DTS Master Audio. All Atmos tracks are designed to revert to the Dolby TrueHD core when there is no Atmos decoder present.

 

[Chrispy]

All Atmos STREAMS are lossy, whether Atmos or not. Two-channel music services usually use FLAC, and if you want to encode a stereo soundtrack, you use DD+ to save bandwidth, or you can encode it as a lossless Dolby TrueHD or DTS Master Audio. All Atmos tracks are designed to revert to the Dolby TrueHD core when there is no Atmos decoder present.

I've not run into a streaming service offering lossless streaming, but haven't really looked for a while otoh. None of the major streamers offer such, do they?

 

[Sal1950]

Yes, I've considered such. I'd much prefer in-ceiling speakers than something like that hanging down, tho. Thanks for the thought

No problem. For me it's all about the music.

All Atmos tracks are designed to revert to the Dolby TrueHD core when there is no Atmos decoder present.

Not streaming Atmos, it's base is DD+

 

[Laika2]

Glad I could help, at least a little...what's ironic is that I started this thread hoping someone could help ME with a question I had about all of this....

But with regard to the issue you're having with Atmos and always showing on the front panel...if I understand you correctly, even if you turn the Virtualizer OFF, it STILL shows Atmos on the display? Are you running a 5.1 system? Please forgive me if you explained this already...

Yea, It's off and 7.1 but really no issue that cant be solved in a few button pushes so really don't want to derail this tread any further

 

[Laika2]

Right, it's referring to the codec, if it is in the meta-data of your source material.


No, you could be listening to a Atmos source using a Atmos "enabled" sound bar, headphones, a few others.

The use of overheads can also be used for codecs other than Atmos, like DTS-X, Auro, Sony360, and others coming wanting to jump on the immersive music bandwagon


Defaults to Dolby,or Atmos ?
It should default to Dolby, but not to Atmos.

Atmos, virtualizer turned off under atmos and all the dts ans dd settings.

Have you tried some tricks like unplugging the AVR for a bit, or doing a full reset?
AFAIK, your your AVR should work like I and a few others have mentioned with Virtuizer off. If it still doesn't maybe some flag is stuck in it's memory.
Or ask over a AVS where there's a huge base of multich users. Still possible theres another flag besides Speaker Visualizer screwing things up?

A couple of times full rest but not lately. I shall try latter and let you know. I will unplug for a half hour, if a failure I will do a full reset, I have it all backed up to a usb stick so should be able to restore all quickly if the glitch remains.
Thanks!

BTW, I've been running a surround system starting with Quad in 1978.

 

[J. Lohmann]

I meant using non-existent overheads....don't use the virtualizer, tho.

So what was your original question referring to? Sorry, so much has been lost in this thread already...