AVR Upmixer Behavior with 5.1 System on 5.1 Tracks

[J. Lohmann]

No, you can't have it both ways. The AVR can't read you mind if you want it with or without upsampling to the overheads. It will revert to your last setting. That's what the Green button is for, for you to tell it what you want.

Right -- I realize that's the problem. In the past, as I mentioned, there were menus in the AVRs in which you could assign specific sound modes for specific types of audio. With these new Atmos-equipped models, they have dropped this, though I do not understand why.

The other problem is that Denons don't remember your last setting based on CHANNEL COUNT -- it is based on codec TYPE. So, it won't, for example, remember to use Dolby Surround every time I watch a disc with a two-channel soundtrack (so the dialogue is steered correctly into the center, etc.), which is what I want. I don't want to have to press that green button every time I switch between discs with varying sound formats -- which I do regularly, as I stated above -- so the only workaround I have found is to leave the upmixers engaged all the time...and I was told this would NOT affect 5.1 signals on my 5.1 system, even though the display is reading "DTHD + DSurr" or whatever it may be.

As such, the essence of this thread lies therein: Can anyone confirm whether or not the upmixers are actually DOING SOMETHING to a 5.1 signal when played back on a 5.1 system like mine? I've been told that the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural upmixers are NOT affecting the sound, even though the AVR indicates "+Upmixer" on the display, because there's nowhere for the 5.1 audio to be "upmixed" to in my case...but can anyone confirm this?

Again -- I'd rather live with the "+Upmixer" designation on the front panel so I don't have to constantly switch between different sound modes via the green button on the remote; I have found that in doing this, the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural WILL kick in automatically when I need them to (in my case, mono or stereo signals).

 

[Sal1950]

So, it won't, for example, remember to use Dolby Surround every time I watch a disc with a two-channel soundtrack (so the dialogue is steered correctly into the center, etc.), which is what I want. I don't want to have to press that green button every time I switch between discs with varying sound formats -- which I do regularly, as I stated above -- so the only workaround I have found is to leave the upmixers engaged all the time...and I was told this would NOT affect 5.1 signals on my 5.1 system, even though the display is reading "DTHD + DSurr" or whatever it may be.

It should remember you last choice based on input signal, IE 2ch upmixed to Dolby, with or without upmix, or DTS-X or not at all, whatever? Each Mode having it's own memories.

It probably doesn't sound any different but why would you leave the memory set to that (" + DSurr") instead of strait DTS or Dolby, what ever?, I'm completely confused on what your doing?

 

[J. Lohmann]

With my older Onkyo I have that option plus it remembers codec per input well. So do my older Denons. I am in the process of playing around with my newest Denon (4700) and it does seem to remember codec/input in conjunction with using the music/movie/game/direct buttons....didn't need to use those before. I guess I leave the 4700 in surround most of the time....not sure if I even have the auto surround mode, off to see ....

Yes -- exactly why I am considering putting my old TX-SR605 back into service because it was SO much more user-friendly for those of us without Atmos setups. The only reason I switched to a new AVR was because the 605 was giving me trouble after nearly two decades of faithful use with regard to an HDMI OUT port -- it seemed to be failing, so the onscreen menus were becoming distorted and weird-looking. The 605 did everything I needed -- Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio support, mainly -- and I was a hardcore fan of the brand for years, ever since a college friend turned me on to it.

I was going to get another Onk, but ever since Premium Audio Group/Voxx/Sharp/Whatever They're Calling Themselves Now bought the brand, they made some operational changes to the receivers that I just couldn't live with. One was the elimination of the "IntelliVolume" system, which was super helpful in adjusting the preamp level stages of each component connected to the AVR, as well as changes to the front display of the units; they no longer show both the sound mode AND input name at the same time, and instead just show the input name and volume level. The only way to confirm whether or not the unit is decoding something properly is to press the "i" button on the remote every time, but then it switches back to input name and volume after a few seconds.

This latter issue was a deal breaker to me, so I went with a Denon 2800, as it offered both an input level control (like Onkyo's IntelliVolume) and a front display that shows the sound mode and input name. However, I really miss the aggressive, in-your-face Onkyo house sound compared to the Denon, and the Denon's build quality is a joke for the price (all plastic knobs and a plastic faceplate for $1k and sometimes more).

 

[J. Lohmann]

It should remember you last choice based on input signal, IE 2ch upmixed to Dolby, with or without upmix, or DTS-X or not at all, whatever? Each Mode having it's own memories.

It does not -- it recalls by codec TYPE (i.e. Dolby, DTS, etc.) not channel count. This was confirmed for me by Denon and others.

It probably doesn't sound any different but why would you leave the memory set to that (" + DSurr") instead of strait DTS or Dolby, what ever?, I'm completely confused on what your doing?

Indeed, you're confused, but there really isn't any need to be. Again, the reason why I leave it so it reads "+DSurr" or "+Neu:X" is because this seems to be the only way for the upmixers to kick on when I need them to AUTOMATICALLY (without using the green button) -- in MY case, that's for one or two-channel signals that need to be steered correctly.

 

[Laika2]

Yes, I wouldn't think the AVR would offer a overhead speaker option if he doesn't have any.
But I wouldn't bet on it. LOL

Yea, me too, my lesser living room system is a 7.1.(main system 7.1.4) on the 7.1 system, no atmos speakers installed or in the internal speaker setup. If it's a Atmos source it defaults to Atmos with no ceiling or height speakers. What is odd is it gets very bass heavy as if the non existent atmos speakers are crossed and sending the bass to the sub.

Marantz 8015. I just change it to the best 7.1 or 5.1 setting in DTS or dolby.

Still odd that it goes and defaults to Atmos.

 

[Chrispy]

You have a monitor attached, press the Info button. It will tell you the source type and how your AVR is outputting it.

Yep, part of my guidance in experimenting with it. I can also see the panel fairly well from my seat. Just wasn't changing codec/sound mode enough on this system to matter I suppose.

 

[Chrispy]

Yes -- exactly why I am considering putting my old TX-SR605 back into service because it was SO much more user-friendly for those of us without Atmos setups. The only reason I switched to a new AVR was because the 605 was giving me trouble after nearly two decades of faithful use with regard to an HDMI OUT port -- it seemed to be failing, so the onscreen menus were becoming distorted and weird-looking. The 605 did everything I needed -- Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio support, mainly -- and I was a hardcore fan of the brand for years, ever since a college friend turned me on to it.

I was going to get another Onk, but ever since Premium Audio Group/Voxx/Sharp/Whatever They're Calling Themselves Now bought the brand, they made some operational changes to the receivers that I just couldn't live with. One was the elimination of the "IntelliVolume" system, which was super helpful in adjusting the preamp level stages of each component connected to the AVR, as well as changes to the front display of the units; they no longer show both the sound mode AND input name at the same time, and instead just show the input name and volume level. The only way to confirm whether or not the unit is decoding something properly is to press the "i" button on the remote every time, but then it switches back to input name and volume after a few seconds.

This latter issue was a deal breaker to me, so I went with a Denon 2800, as it offered both an input level control (like Onkyo's IntelliVolume) and a front display that shows the sound mode and input name. However, I really miss the aggressive, in-your-face Onkyo house sound compared to the Denon, and the Denon's build quality is a joke for the price (all plastic knobs and a plastic faceplate for $1k and sometimes more).

I suppose part of it is the aggressive marketing of "Atmos" by Dolby generally (I am also without Atmos in all my systems, ceilings are a hassle). Let alone what Atmos can mean, such as the streamed music version or its existence in phones etc. I do prefer my older units that simply start with the received codec or my last-used sound mode if I changed it....but still seeing if Atmos is the triggered mode rather than just Dolby Surround. All Dolby's fault most likely.

 

[Sal1950]

I suppose part of it is the aggressive marketing of "Atmos" by Dolby generally (I am also without Atmos in all my systems, ceilings are a hassle). Let alone what Atmos can mean, such as the streamed music version or its existence in phones etc. I do prefer my older units that simply start with the received codec or my last-used sound mode if I changed it....but still seeing if Atmos is the triggered mode rather than just Dolby Surround. All Dolby's fault most likely.

Lean to your right, then to the left, and dig down into those deep pockets.
Then come up with the cash to get at least a 4 speaker Atmos config mounted up.
You'll never regret it.

 

[J. Lohmann]

Yea, me too, my lesser living room system is a 7.1.(main system 7.1.4) on the 7.1 system, no atmos speakers installed or in the internal speaker setup. If it's a Atmos source it defaults to Atmos with no ceiling or height speakers. What is odd is it gets very bass heavy as if the non existent atmos speakers are crossed and sending the bass to the sub.

Marantz 8015. I just change it to the best 7.1 or 5.1 setting in DTS or dolby.

Still odd that it goes and defaults to Atmos.

If it's defaulting to Atmos, then your SPEAKER VIRTUALIZER is likely on -- this is the only way these AVRs detect Atmos if there aren't overheads present.

 

[Laika2]

If it's defaulting to Atmos, then your SPEAKER VIRTUALIZER is likely on -- this is the only way these AVRs detect Atmos if there aren't overheads present.

Thanks, I shall look for that feature and turn it off.

 

[J. Lohmann]

I suppose part of it is the aggressive marketing of "Atmos" by Dolby generally (I am also without Atmos in all my systems, ceilings are a hassle). Let alone what Atmos can mean, such as the streamed music version or its existence in phones etc. I do prefer my older units that simply start with the received codec or my last-used sound mode if I changed it....but still seeing if Atmos is the triggered mode rather than just Dolby Surround. All Dolby's fault most likely.

Well, the thing is, these manufacturers assume every setup supports Atmos now (or, at the very least, 7.1), which is why the 5.1 models that are left in the lineups are REALLY cheap and stripped -- of power, features and build. In reality, a 5.1 AVR is all we personally need, but their build and specs are so poor, there's no way any of them would do any good for powering, at the very least, our Polk RTi12 towers up front.

I hate this Denon so much that I am seriously considering reinstalling my old Onkyo, and living with the shortcomings (no processing power to properly matrix 2.0 DTS-HD signals, a malfunctioning HDMI MONITOR out port, no way to change the preferred HDMI input for my 4K BD player to anything other than "DVD," etc.). It was so much more simple to use compared to this X2800, and didn't have the added confusion of seeing the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixer designations on the display when they're not active.

 

[J. Lohmann]

Yes, I wouldn't think the AVR would offer a overhead speaker option if he doesn't have any.
But I wouldn't bet on it. LOL

The speaker configuration area of the Denon's setup menu, just to be clear, DOESN'T indicate we have overheads because I configured it for five main zone channels -- the problem is that, because of the way Dolby/DTS/Denon programmed the software, the upmixers continue to show as if they're engaged when they SHOULDN'T (in my case, when playing a source with a 5.1 soundtrack over my 5.1 system).

 

[J. Lohmann]

Lean to your right, then to the left, and dig down into those deep pockets.
Then come up with the cash to get at least a 4 speaker Atmos config mounted up.
You'll never regret it.

Some folks just can't do Atmos in a specific room -- as a good example, we have a 5.1 arrangement in our living room, but we're using two in-ceiling SpeakerCrafts as the surround channels. This house we bought had the speakers pre-installed in the ceiling already, so I took advantage of that and had a company come in to repurpose two of them as the surround channels in our setup; from what I was told, in-ceiling surrounds CANNOT be used with an Atmos setup as the layout would just confuse all the spatial information in a soundtrack -- but we're not doing bed-level surrounds in the room because of the couch layout, and can't do the "modules" that sit on top of the front speakers, as I was advised those won't work, again, with in-ceiling surrounds.

 

[J. Lohmann]

Thanks, I shall look for that feature and turn it off.

You have to have a Dolby source playing, and then need to go into the setup menu under "Audio," where you'll see options for the Speaker Virtualizer (actually, I don't think you need to have a source playing to see this in the menu). Let me know if you can't find it.

I keep the Virtualizer off because we're running in-ceiling surrounds (2) as our back channels, and the Virtualizer is really to be used to make a bed-level 5.1 setup seem like an Atmos variant (placing sounds supposedly above you). This won't work with my system (being that the surround channels are in the ceiling), so I leave the Virtualizer off; when I do this, Dolby Atmos tracks are played as their Dolby TrueHD core signals, showing on the Denon as "DTHD." This was the way my previous Onkyo that didn't support Atmos worked, as well.

 

[Laika2]

You have to have a Dolby source playing, and then need to go into the setup menu under "Audio," where you'll see options for the Speaker Virtualizer (actually, I don't think you need to have a source playing to see this in the menu). Let me know if you can't find it.

I keep the Virtualizer off because we're running in-ceiling surrounds (2) as our back channels, and the Virtualizer is really to be used to make a bed-level 5.1 setup seem like an Atmos variant (placing sounds supposedly above you). This won't work with my system (being that the surround channels are in the ceiling), so I leave the Virtualizer off; when I do this, Dolby Atmos tracks are played as their Dolby TrueHD core signals, showing on the Denon as "DTHD." This was the way my previous Onkyo that didn't support Atmos worked, as well.

I hear you, it's going off, (it seems like it;'s trying to matrix the quasi atmos layer) that does not. As in the imaginary atmos layer has crossovers and it's sending the the lower signal to the sub. Everything is balanced and dialed in. It just adds extra bass to the point of muddiness, no phantom effects from above. Same with most of the 5.1 sources when they are forced into 7.1, muddy bass. I now ram both my systems into whatever the highest standard source I can get, if it 5.1 DTS that's what I use. 7.1 TrueHD that's what I use. I find at least in my room the source encoding should be left alone and ran in the mode intended.

May not be true for all, speakers and rooms can change the equation.

Thanks again.

 

[kyuu]

If it's defaulting to Atmos, then your SPEAKER VIRTUALIZER is likely on -- this is the only way these AVRs detect Atmos if there aren't overheads present.

Huh? I have no overheads, my AVR is explicitly set to 5.1. If the source is outputting ATMOS then the AVR will still say ATMOS, virtualization or no. You don't have to have overheads to get and decode an ATMOS bitstream.

 

[J. Lohmann]

Edit

 

[J. Lohmann]

Huh? I have no overheads, my AVR is explicitly set to 5.1. If the source is outputting ATMOS then the AVR will still say ATMOS, virtualization or no. You don't have to have overheads to get and decode an ATMOS bitstream.

That's not how my Denon works, at all, and it was explained to me by a Denon engineer that the Virtualizer must be on in order to see the "Dolby Atmos" insignia on the display if your system doesn't have overheads.

I tested it countless times with my own AVR -- if I keep the Virtualizer ON, I get "Dolby Atmos" on front of the AVR. If I turn it OFF, I get "DTHD," because it's decoding the TrueHD core.

What brand and model AVR do you have? Might just be a Denon thing...

 

[Laika2]

Huh? I have no overheads, my AVR is explicitly set to 5.1. If the source is outputting ATMOS then the AVR will still say ATMOS, virtualization or no. You don't have to have overheads to get and decode an ATMOS bitstream.

Can you tell me what that does to the bed layer since there is no other layer. I'm confused as to why it allows Atmos with no Atmos speakers unless it's matrix tricks. In my mind it's like setting setting up a stereo music system with just two towers and have it default to DD5.1 (Defaulting to speakers that do not exist in the system.

Thanks for any thoughts.

 

[J. Lohmann]

I hear you, it's going off, (it seems like it;'s trying to matrix the quasi atmos layer) that does not. As in the imaginary atmos layer has crossovers and it's sending the the lower signal to the sub. Everything is balanced and dialed in. It just adds extra bass to the point of muddiness, no phantom effects from above. Same with most of the 5.1 sources when they are forced into 7.1, muddy bass. I now ram both my systems into whatever the highest standard source I can get, if it 5.1 DTS that's what I use. 7.1 TrueHD that's what I use. I find at least in my room the source encoding should be left alone and ran in the mode intended.

May not be true for all, speakers and rooms can change the equation.

Thanks again.

No worries.

I also found, when I used to watch discs with 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio tracks on my old Onkyo, that there was something "missing" -- like, I had to hike the master volume up quite a bit to get the audio going, where I didn't with Dolby TrueHD sources.