AVR Upmixer Behavior with 5.1 System on 5.1 Tracks

[J. Lohmann]

Greetings.

I kind-of-recently replaced an Onkyo TX-SR605 with a Denon AVR-X2800, and I'm a bit confused with regard to how the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X "upmixers" are behaving as compared to the old Pro Logic II and DTS Neo matrixers on the more vintage AVRs. In the past, on my Onkyo, I was able to "assign" specific sound modes to specific formats -- so I could, for example, assign Pro Logic II Movie to Dolby two-channel signals and it would automatically steer the mix to the right speakers, whether they were stereo or mono.

With these new AVRs, there are no longer assignable modes for signals, so everything is auto-decoded by the processor. Now, I'm only running a 5.1 system, so there's no need to "upmix" anything other than one or two-channel tracks from discs (i.e. mono or stereo, steered to the proper channels) -- no sending information from 5.1 tracks into any heights. I have found that with the Denon, the only way I can get the upmixers to engage AUTOMATICALLY -- that is, not having to press the green MOVIE button on the remote every time -- when I need them to (again, with one or two-channel signals) is to leave their designations illuminated on the display.

In other words, when I play DOLBY signals, the front of the AVR reads:

Dolby Digital: "DD + DSurr"
Dolby TrueHD: "DTHD + DSurr"

And when I play DTS signals, the front reads:

DTS: "DTS + Neu:X"
DTS-HD: "DTSHD + Neu:X"

The problem is, I can't STAND looking at the "+Upmixer" designation on the front panel because I KNOW I'm not using one when it's a 5.1 track played on my 5.1 system -- but, as I stated above, it seems to be the only way I can get the upmixers to engage automatically when I need them...otherwise, I'd have to press the green MOVIE button every time I change between a disc with surround audio and one with a two-channel track. I just don't want to have to do that.

Now, I have been told by some people and by a so-called "Tier 2 engineer" at Denon/Marantz that even though the front of the Denon is reading "+Upmixer," it's not actually DOING anything to the 5.1 signal on my 5.1 setup (unless I leave the Speaker Virtualizer turned on, which I don't), but others have SWORE to me that the signal IS being manipulated in some way by leaving the "+Upmixer" engaged on the display.

I have tried it both ways -- playing a disc's soundtrack and listening to the actual signal in the right mode (i.e. "Dolby D," "DTS," etc.) and then switching to the "+Upmixer" mode -- but I really can't hear any difference, unless my ears are tricking me.

Is there anyone here who could possibly put this to rest for me? If I'm running a 5.1 setup and listening to a 5.1 track on a disc, is the Dolby Surround or DTS Neural:X upmixer actually DOING anything to the signal, or is it just cosmetic? Does anyone know if there's a way to shut off the "+Upmixer" designation on the display without resorting to selecting the actual direct sound mode?

 

[Soundmixer]

If you only have a 5.1 system, then leave the processing at Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD-Master Audio. If you don't have top or height speakers, then you don't need to use the upmixers. If you turn the virtualizer on, it will try to synthesize overhead virtual speakers, which is probably more appropriate for your setup.

 

[Sal1950]

Greetings.

I kind-of-recently replaced an Onkyo TX-SR605 with a Denon AVR-X2800, and I'm a bit confused with regard to how the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X "upmixers" are behaving as compared to the old Pro Logic II and DTS Neo matrixers on the more vintage AVRs. In the past, on my Onkyo, I was able to "assign" specific sound modes to specific formats -- so I could, for example, assign Pro Logic II Movie to Dolby two-channel signals and it would automatically steer the mix to the right speakers, whether they were stereo or mono.

With these new AVRs, there are no longer assignable modes for signals, so everything is auto-decoded by the processor. Now, I'm only running a 5.1 system, so there's no need to "upmix" anything other than one or two-channel tracks from discs (i.e. mono or stereo, steered to the proper channels) -- no sending information from 5.1 tracks into any heights. I have found that with the Denon, the only way I can get the upmixers to engage AUTOMATICALLY -- that is, not having to press the green MOVIE button on the remote every time -- when I need them to (again, with one or two-channel signals) is to leave their designations illuminated on the display.

In other words, when I play DOLBY signals, the front of the AVR reads:

Dolby Digital: "DD + DSurr"
Dolby TrueHD: "DTHD + DSurr"

And when I play DTS signals, the front reads:

DTS: "DTS + Neu:X"
DTS-HD: "DTSHD + Neu:X"

The problem is, I can't STAND looking at the "+Upmixer" designation on the front panel because I KNOW I'm not using one when it's a 5.1 track played on my 5.1 system -- but, as I stated above, it seems to be the only way I can get the upmixers to engage automatically when I need them...otherwise, I'd have to press the green MOVIE button every time I change between a disc with surround audio and one with a two-channel track. I just don't want to have to do that.

Now, I have been told by some people and by a so-called "Tier 2 engineer" at Denon/Marantz that even though the front of the Denon is reading "+Upmixer," it's not actually DOING anything to the 5.1 signal on my 5.1 setup (unless I leave the Speaker Virtualizer turned on, which I don't), but others have SWORE to me that the signal IS being manipulated in some way by leaving the "+Upmixer" engaged on the display.

I have tried it both ways -- playing a disc's soundtrack and listening to the actual signal in the right mode (i.e. "Dolby D," "DTS," etc.) and then switching to the "+Upmixer" mode -- but I really can't hear any difference, unless my ears are tricking me.

Is there anyone here who could possibly put this to rest for me? If I'm running a 5.1 setup and listening to a 5.1 track on a disc, is the Dolby Surround or DTS Neural:X upmixer actually DOING anything to the signal, or is it just cosmetic? Does anyone know if there's a way to shut off the "+Upmixer" designation on the display without resorting to selecting the actual direct sound mode?

I'm wondering why your Denon wants to upmix to overhead channels when you don't have any?
Sounds like something is wrong with the original configuration. (maybe?)
What are your sources your using, disks in BluRay player, ripped CDs on PC, streamed music, etc?
Anyway when playing a DTS encoded source like a DTS CD chose straight DTS Surround from the Music mode menu, the AVR should then remember that choice for that source.
If the source is a standard 5.1 source you chose "Multich In" mode.
The AVR will remember your choices for playback from the Mode menu.

 

[Soundmixer]

I'm wondering why your Denon wants to upmix to overhead channels when you don't have any?
Sounds like something is wrong with the original configuration. (maybe?)
What are your sources your using, disks in BluRay player, ripped CDs on PC, streamed music, etc?
Anyway when playing a DTS encoded source like a DTS CD chose straight DTS Surround from the Music mode menu, the AVR should then remember that choice for that source.
If the source is a standard 5.1 source you chose "Multich In" mode.
The AVR will remember your choices for playback from the Mode menu.

If he has his processor set to 5.1+2or4 heights, the upmixer will automatically engage. So you are right, it is likely a configuration issue.

 

[Sal1950]

If he has his processor set to 5.1+2or4 heights, the upmixer will automatically engage. So you are right, it is likely a configuration issue.

Yes, I wouldn't think the AVR would offer a overhead speaker option if he doesn't have any.
But I wouldn't bet on it. LOL

 

[RedCannon]

My Denon acts the same way. It annoys me especially when watching stereo content from the tv apps. I have audio passthrough on tv, but the avr always uses dolbysurr. I have to manually change it to stereo for stereo content then back again when watching content that is more than stereo on the tv apps. Same goes when watching bluerays in 5.1 content. It auto chooses the upmixer everytime it reads a format that wasnt the same as last time.

I used to run a 5.1 layout then went to 7.1 so Im always changing the settings to what I need and prefer. I would like to believe dolby surround doesnt mess with the base 5.1 content with 5.1 speaker layout.

I find the upmixer to always smear the sound across.

My configuration was set correctly even when I had 5.1. Still used upmixer...

 

[Sal1950]

My Denon acts the same way. It annoys me especially when watching stereo content from the tv apps. I have audio passthrough on tv, but the avr always uses dolbysurr. I have to manually change it to stereo for stereo content then back again when watching content that is more than stereo on the tv apps. Same goes when watching bluerays in 5.1 content. It auto chooses the upmixer everytime it reads a format that wasnt the same as last time.

So if you chose Music > Stereo for a 2ch source, and then return to it or any other 2ch source it will return to DolbySurround?.
(maybe with the TV source use Movie > Stereo ?)
All works correctly with my Denon 4700H

(edit, remember so much of todays TV broadcasting is done in multich, even if the show isn't, the commercials are, and the AVR might override your 2ch choice if the source identifies itself as a multich source)

 

[Chrispy]

So if you chose Music > Stereo for a 2ch source, and then return to it or any other 2ch source it will return to DolbySurround?.
(maybe with the TV source use Movie > Stereo ?)
All works correctly with my Denon 4700H

It's input dependent too, isn't it? So if codec on different inputs you have to "train" the avr accordingly to remember your preference.

 

[Sal1950]

It's input dependent too, isn't it? So if codec on different inputs you have to "train" the avr accordingly to remember your preference.

Yes I believe so.
These things are quite smart, maybe tooo much so. LOL

 

[Chrispy]

Yes I believe so.
These things are quite smart, maybe tooo much so. LOL

I have an older Onkyo where you could pre-determine in a menu per input how to play things, too....but also had the memory thing going.

 

[RedCannon]

I have never tried stereo music preset with tv shows. That might actually be an easier way to switch to stereo. Then I could press movie for anything 5.1 or more.

So if you chose Music > Stereo for a 2ch source, and then return to it or any other 2ch source it will return to DolbySurround?.
(maybe with the TV source use Movie > Stereo ?)

If Im watching a bluray with dolby trueHD I turn off dolbysurr, then watch a bluray with Dts HD it will use the upscaler for dts (turn that off). If i go back to dolby trueHD it uses with dolby surr. Its all on the same 4k bluray player. Do I need a second one for all of my dts and one for dolby so it isnt changing to the upsacler when I go back and forth? I will never understand how these autoselect features work.

 

[Chrispy]

If Im watching a bluray with dolby trueHD I turn off dolbysurr, then watch a bluray with Dts HD it will use the upscaler for dts (turn that off). If i go back to dolby trueHD it uses with dolby surr. Its all on the same 4k bluray player. Do I need a second one for all of my dts and one for dolby so it isnt changing to the upsacler when I go back and forth? I will never understand how these autoselect features work.

Since that's a single input (presumably) for your disc player, it's just the codec you are playing back and choose a particular sound mode that it will remember a preference for. So a disc with only DTS should play that back to the sound mode you last selected for the codec, and change for Dolby TrueHD codec to whatever you set it for preference.

 

[RedCannon]

So it sounds like user error . I'll have to find out what I'm doing wrong. Thank you for your knowledge.

 

[Sal1950]

then watch a bluray with Dts HD it will use the upscaler for dts (turn that off).

If I got your question correctly, with DTS source playing, look in your receiver's Settings > DTS Neural:X and turn OFF auto upscaling.

 

[J. Lohmann]

Guys,

Thanks for all the replies; didn't realize I had so many until I checked mail after the weekend...

Here's the thing (and this is in direct relation to someone's initial suggestion to leave the sound modes in the Denon turned to their direct variants -- i.e. Dolby Digital gets Dolby D, DTS-HD MSTR gets DTS-HD et al):

I am only running a 5.1 setup and have told the AVR the same during the setup process (amp configuration stage), and I leave the Virtualizer turned OFF. When I do this and leave the decoding to AUTO (on the Denon, going through the Direct/Pure Direct/Auto selections), every track automatically plays back with an upmixer applied -- so Dolby signals get Dolby Surround and DTS signals get DTS Neural:X. The readout is like this on the front panel:

"DD + DSurr"
"DTHD + DSurr"
"DTS + Neu:X"

And so on...

If I do what was suggested in this thread and leave all codecs to decode as they should for a 5.1 system, I won't be able to get the upmixers to engage AUTOMATICALLY when I need them to -- in my case, with a 5.1 setup, that would be for one or two-channel tracks (mono or stereo), so they're steered to the proper speakers. The ONLY way I am able to get the AVR to AUTOMATICALLY switch to the appropriate upmixers for one or two-channel signals -- that is, without me having to press the green MOVIE button on the remote every time to switch modes -- is to leave the "+Upmixer" engaged on the display of the receiver.

Now, I was told by a few people online and by a Denon/Marantz engineer that even though the "+Upmixer" is being shown on the display, it is NOT affecting the 5.1 audio of the film soundtracks I'm listening to, because there's nowhere for the audio to "upmix" to. In other words, it's just a "cosmetic bug" in the Denons, as they won't turn off the upmixer designations if they're not needed in a 5.1 situation.

I just wanted confirmation from someone here if that sounds right, or if it can be 100-percent confirmed that this is how it works.

 

[J. Lohmann]

I have an older Onkyo where you could pre-determine in a menu per input how to play things, too....but also had the memory thing going.

Yes -- my old Onkyo 605 had that menu where you could apply specific sound modes to specific audio types. So, I could apply PRO LOGIC II MOVIE mode to Dolby stereo signals, and MONO MOVIE mode to one-channel mono signals. THAT'S the problem with the new AVRs -- there are no more of these mode assignment menus, and the AVRs just automatically assume everyone is running an Atmos setup, so the default approach is to apply an upmixer to everything (unless you override it by specifically picking the direct codec mode, but this, as I said above, won't let it remember to use, say, Dolby Surround the next time a two-channel signal is detected).

 

[J. Lohmann]

If he has his processor set to 5.1+2or4 heights, the upmixer will automatically engage. So you are right, it is likely a configuration issue.

From what I have been told, it's not a configuration issue -- I have configured the AVR to know that I have five speakers plus a sub. That's not the problem. The issue is that when a Denon is set to AUTO surround decode, it automatically applies an upmixer to everything unless you override that and pick the mode for what you're specifically listening to. However, if I do that, the AVR WON'T remember to utilize an upmixer for -- in my case -- one or two-channel signals automatically, forcing me to hit that green MOVIE button to cycle to an appropriate upmixing mode every time I switch discs with varying soundtracks (which I do a lot).

The only way I have been able to work around this is to leave the upmixers engaged on the AVR's display (so it reads "DD + DSurr" or whatever it may be), and in this way, 5.1 tracks are sent as-is (I have been told) while the upmixers engage automatically when the receiver senses one or two-channel signals.

 

[Sal1950]

The ONLY way I am able to get the AVR to AUTOMATICALLY switch to the appropriate upmixers for one or two-channel signals -- that is, without me having to press the green MOVIE button on the remote every time to switch modes -- is to leave the "+Upmixer" engaged on the display of the receiver.

No, you can't have it both ways. The AVR can't read you mind if you want it with or without upsampling to the overheads. It will revert to your last setting. That's what the Green button is for, for you to tell it what you want.

 

[Chrispy]

Yes -- my old Onkyo 605 had that menu where you could apply specific sound modes to specific audio types. So, I could apply PRO LOGIC II MOVIE mode to Dolby stereo signals, and MONO MOVIE mode to one-channel mono signals. THAT'S the problem with the new AVRs -- there are no more of these mode assignment menus, and the AVRs just automatically assume everyone is running an Atmos setup, so the default approach is to apply an upmixer to everything (unless you override it by specifically picking the direct codec mode, but this, as I said above, won't let it remember to use, say, Dolby Surround the next time a two-channel signal is detected).

With my older Onkyo I have that option plus it remembers codec per input well. So do my older Denons. I am in the process of playing around with my newest Denon (4700) and it does seem to remember codec/input in conjunction with using the music/movie/game/direct buttons....didn't need to use those before. I guess I leave the 4700 in surround most of the time....not sure if I even have the auto surround mode, off to see ....

 

[Sal1950]

With my older Onkyo I have that option plus it remembers codec per input well. So do my older Denons. I am in the process of playing around with my newest Denon (4700) and it does seem to remember codec/input in conjunction with using the music/movie/game/direct buttons....didn't need to use those before. I guess I leave the 4700 in surround most of the time....not sure if I even have the auto surround mode, off to see ....

You have a monitor attached, press the Info button. It will tell you the source type and how your AVR is outputting it.