AVR for music suggestions

[EWL5]

Hey now that you mentioned that it could be. I wasn't too familiar with the HDMI standards and its limitations as the AVR was always the last link in the chain, not a pass through and I never considered it would be an issue for audio only even if it's a bit older. And with external DAC you do skip the HDMI...

Where would the jitter come from though? The ARC cable is only 1m long, and other HDMI cables are 1.2m longest. The TV is the pass through for audio and is a high end TV from 2016. The Pioneer has a clear visual indicator if the sound is clipping and is never engaged with its own DAC. Sometimes it does get engaged with external DAC but I don't audibly hear the sound getting distorted or messed up, I adjust accordingly on the DAC to stay below the limit anyway

Your description of how you connected the Pioneer to the SMSL RAW MDA1 is odd.

1) Pioneer accepts all HDMI sources.
2) Output from Pioneer are RCA cables (you said analog so I assume RCA). Pioneer DAC has already been engaged. The weird thing is I only see RCA and XLR outputs and not RCA inputs on the SMSL RAW MDA1 (did you mean the digital coax inputs?).
3) Assuming you're using digital coax, you're not enjoying multichannel lossless audio (maxes out to stereo) since only the HDCP-enabled connections like HDMI can carry these signals.

I haven't used the digital coax or optical connection for audio since 2006 or earlier!

 

[schotky]

Well you not knowing is why I said: we'd need measurements to see if anything hidden messes up the signal that could explain what you are hearing.

I got a new AVR last Fall and can only say the X4800H is amazing. Signal source is usually my PC.
Having Dirac in such a unit is so comfy, no longer do I need to fiddle with DAWs and plugins. :'D

I can also find no fault in it's sound even when I compare it to my ADI-2 DAC, which is proven to be above reproach by hard data measured by our Senpai Amir.

Perhaps worth consideration for your setup?

I'd be happy to do measurements and figure it out as well, but if they are not easy to do, plus I don't have any equipment to do that properly... But still, I'd do it if the whole thing wouldn't turn to be a lot of fiddling around and costly

It looks like I'd need to be chasing a newer AVR, the X3800H or X4800H are definitely on my list so probably that would be the next target... So yeah worth a consideration for sure, and then feed the source HDMI to it directly rather than through the TV

 

[schotky]

Your description of how you connected the Pioneer to the SMSL RAW MDA1 is odd.

1) Pioneer accepts all HDMI sources.
2) Output from Pioneer are RCA cables (you said analog so I assume RCA). Pioneer DAC has already been engaged. The weird thing is I only see RCA and XLR outputs and not RCA inputs on the SMSL RAW MDA1 (did you mean the digital coax inputs?).
3) Assuming you're using digital coax, you're not enjoying multichannel lossless audio (maxes out to stereo) since only the HDCP-enabled connections like HDMI can carry these signals.

I haven't used the digital coax or optical connection for audio since 2006 or earlier!

Oh sorry if I got you confused. The Pioneer does have multiple analog RCA stereo inputs, I don't think it has RCA analog outputs other than the subwoofer. I use the XLR output from the DAC to CD Audio RCA input on the AVR and performs very well that way. Even the noise floor is noticeably lower like this.

The Pioneer schematic does show that the RCA analog inputs bypass the internal DAC, and if I engage the surround processing while using the RCA inputs, it does a great job really without much changing or degrading the sound, the difference is so small I can easily ignore it and still enjoy the music.

And I think the Marantz does a noticeably worse job with surround processing with the same setup. To me, other than the sound quality a little bit, while using HDMI ARC audio on both, everything else is obviously better on the Pioneer.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

The Pioneer schematic does show that the RCA analog inputs bypass the internal DAC, and if I engage the surround processing while using the RCA inputs, it does a great job really without much changing or degrading the sound, the difference is so small I can easily ignore it and still enjoy the music.

Umm unless it just mirrors the signal to the rears, the moment you activate "surround processing", the chain would be like this:
External DAC -> Pioneers ADC -> Pioneer's DSP -> Pioneers DAC -> Pioneers AMP -> Speaker.

It is really odd that you say you get the harshness when feeding HDMI directly, which would only do:
Pioneer's DSP -> Pioneers DAC -> Pioneers AMP -> Speaker.

Though perhaps the issue lies with the HDMI inputs themselves. Ever tried Coax or optical on the Pioneer, to use a different digital input?

 

[schotky]

Umm unless it just mirrors the signal to the rears, the moment you activate "surround processing", the chain would be like this:
External DAC -> Pioneers ADC -> Pioneer's DSP -> Pioneers DAC -> Pioneers AMP -> Speaker.

It is really odd that you say you get the harshness when feeding HDMI directly, which would only do:
Pioneer's DSP -> Pioneers DAC -> Pioneers AMP -> Speaker.

Though perhaps the issue lies with the HDMI inputs themselves. Ever tried Coax or optical on the Pioneer, to use a different digital input?

It definitely doesn't mirror to the rear speakers, not everything is heard on the rears as it's on the fronts. Not sure what the actual electronic pathway is for that through the RCA input when surround is engaged. The sound does degrade when I engage the surround processing though (have to exit Pure Direct for this), but it's so little affected that I can hear the difference and not mind it really to be in my listening experience when I use the analog inputs.

So the biggest issue might be the HDMI, but there something else in the digital processing when not in Pure Direct that messes up the sound a little bit as well, but as I said, this is so minimal I could easily not mind it.

Have not tried any other digital input though on the Pioneer. The DAC has both coax and optical out so I might as well give it a try to see if there's any difference.

 

[EWL5]

Have not tried any other digital input though on the Pioneer. The DAC has both coax and optical out so I might as well give it a try to see if there's any difference.

According to the Apos site, you only have coax and optical inputs:

SMSL RAW-MDA 1 DAC/Amp

Elevate your audio game with the SMSL RAW-MDA 1 DAC/Amp. Featuring dual ESS ES9039Q2M chips, full MQA decoding, Bluetooth 5.1, and dual USB modes, it delivers pristine sound for music lovers and gamers alike. Compatible with PS5 and Switch, this high-fidelity DAC/Amp transforms your listening...

apos.audio

 

[schotky]

According to the Apos site, you only have coax and optical inputs:

SMSL RAW-MDA 1 DAC/Amp

Elevate your audio game with the SMSL RAW-MDA 1 DAC/Amp. Featuring dual ESS ES9039Q2M chips, full MQA decoding, Bluetooth 5.1, and dual USB modes, it delivers pristine sound for music lovers and gamers alike. Compatible with PS5 and Switch, this high-fidelity DAC/Amp transforms your listening...

apos.audio

Dang it you're right. I had a look at the back and completely missed the word "input", but it's a bit on the side so probably that's why I missed it... But anyway it doesn't even make much sense a DAC to have a digital out really... Its whole purpose is to provide a good analog out haha, I totally overlooked that

OK the TV has optical out I can try that

 

[motomech]

For what it's worth I haved been trying to build a decent budget multi-channel system for years and only recently hit on a combo where I can listen to music and not feel like the trade-off going from 2-channel fidelity to having "surround" music is worth it.
I'm not saying this is the best way to do it, but bear in mind I'm working with stuff I already have on hand.
Receiver - 2017 Yamaha RX-A 870. For watching 2-channel movies up-scaled it works fine, dynamic and clean enough, but I could never listen to music on it. So for the last several years, I've had two separate systems (in the same room).
What I'm using now is:
TV optical to -
SMSL Sanskrit DAC :
into RCA in on the AVR -
AVR main pre-outs to:
Aiyima A07 Max 2-channel amp.;
to main speakers.

Receiver settings; After trying an almost endless combo of settings, I came to realize what I should have known from the begining, KISS is best. I have never cared much for all the DSP "Scene" settings and the surround formats other than the one Yamaha calls Dolby Surround Upmixer and that's all I use. No room correction, no EQ and no bass management. Activating any of these degrades the sound quality, so all the Yammie is doing is stearing and powering the frt. presence and surround speakers. The low power demand allows me to leave the volume level at or below -15 db, the point at which, If I have read Amir's measurements correctly, the noise floor starts to rise on these recievers.

i think why this works for me is while the system is budget, the speakers are not. I never have felt that need any correction or EQ'ing on them even when being run by the current crop of revealing DAC's and Class D amps.

I like this set-up well enough that I'm going to copy it for another location.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I have never cared much for all the DSP "Scene" settings and the surround formats other than the one Yamaha calls Dolby Surround Upmixer and that's all I use. No room correction, no EQ and no bass management. Activating any of these degrade the sound quality, so all the Yammie is doing is stearing and powering the frt. presence and surround speakers.

Yeah never really seen any point to these different surround modes either. Guess they are a relic from the times of Pro Logic, when Surround was "interpreted" from a stereo track or sth.

IMHO: No bass management is a MASSIVE downgrade to sound quality though, unless you thoroughly treated your room. If there is one thing that ruins music above all else it's modal bass going: bOoOoOm!!11

Ugh. I heard 50K€+ systems in showrooms getting completely wrecked by this, to the point that I just wanted to shut them down.

That being said: no clue how good Yamaha's YPAO is, i've never used it on my old Yammy AVR. I went straight to a Dirac setup.

OK the TV has optical out I can try that

Feed it some nice FLAC / WAV (PCM) tracks from a USB drive to test, should bypass the TV's DAC / DSP stage to give you a clean result. Or hook up a computer with optical out.

 

[schotky]

For what it's worth I haved been trying to build a decent budget multi-channel system for years and only recently hit on a combo where I can listen to music and not feel like the trade-off going from 2-channel fidelity to having "surround" music is worth it.
I'm not saying this is the best way to do it, but bear in mind I'm working with stuff I already have on hand.
Receiver - 2017 Yamaha RX-A 870. For watching 2-channel movies up-scaled it works fine, dynamic and clean enough, but I could never listen to music on it. So for the last several years, I've had two separate systems (in the same room).
What I'm using now is:
TV optical to -
SMSL Sanskrit DAC :
into RCA in on the AVR -
AVR main pre-outs to:
Aiyima A07 Max 2-channel amp.;
to main speakers.

Receiver settings; After trying an almost endless combo of settings, I came to realize what I should have known from the begining, KISS is best. I have never cared much for all the DSP "Scene" settings and the surround formats other than the one Yamaha calls Dolby Surround Upmixer and that's all I use. No room correction, no EQ and no bass management. Activating any of these degrades the sound quality, so all the Yammie is doing is stearing and powering the frt. presence and surround speakers. The low power demand allows me to leave the volume level at or below -15 db, the point at which, If I have read Amir's measurements correctly, the noise floor starts to rise on these recievers.

i think why this works for me is while the system is budget, the speakers are not. I never have felt that need any correction or EQ'ing on them even when being run by the current crop of revealing DAC's and Class D amps.

I like this set-up well enough that I'm going to copy it for another location.

OK interesting, thanks for the suggestion. Your music setup seems like it doesn't contain HDMI, I actually want to keep that as a part of the chain. I also wanted to have as minimum devices as possible and extra wiring, so having an HDMI helps with that, plus it integrates well with automation.

I can also live without room correction in my room, but it is needed in the bass management for optimum sound, lower end gets to sound much tighter and defined. This option works great in the Pioneer when set up manually and it affects the sound so little it's negligible on it. And older Marantz at least aren't good at it xD, so I think I'll be back to the Pioneer along many other reasons, and then probably add Wiim Ultra until I can get a good newer AVR, cause here in Au prices of electronics are literally unreasonable and insane. People are selling second hand X2700h for $1200, and a X4700H with none of the HDMI ports working for $1000...it's just nuts, nothing makes sense.

I'm yet to try class D in home audio. I have both class AB and D high end amps for my bass guitar, and there is audible difference between the two, not much but there definitely is. For reference, the 480W class AB outputs about 80% of audible volume the class D does at 1200W...

What is KISS though?

 

[schotky]

Yeah never really seen any point to these different surround modes either. Guess they are a relic from the times of Pro Logic, when Surround was "interpreted" from a stereo track or sth.

IMHO: No bass management is a MASSIVE downgrade to sound quality though, unless you thoroughly treated your room. If there is one thing that ruins music above all else it's modal bass going: bOoOoOm!!11

Ugh. I heard 50K€+ systems in showrooms getting completely wrecked by this, to the point that I just wanted to shut them down.

That being said: no clue how good Yamaha's YPAO is, i've never used it on my old Yammy AVR. I went straight to a Dirac setup.

Feed it some nice FLAC / WAV (PCM) tracks from a USB drive to test, should bypass the TV's DAC / DSP stage to give you a clean result. Or hook up a computer with optical out.

I completely agree regarding bass management, it is a big downgrade if you want optimum sound, even if you treat the room you still might want it a little. On the Marantz I just can't adjust the low end to sound as I like it cause of that...

Yeah I'll run that from the TV and post some feedback when I do it, either USB FLAC or probably just stream Tidal, the difference is there even on YouTube Music, I keed you not

 

[motomech]

OK interesting, thanks for the suggestion. Your music setup seems like it doesn't contain HDMI, I actually want to keep that as a part of the chain. I also wanted to have as minimum devices as possible and extra wiring, so having an HDMI helps with that, plus it integrates well with automation.

I can also live without room correction in my room, but it is needed in the bass management for optimum sound, lower end gets to sound much tighter and defined. This option works great in the Pioneer when set up manually and it affects the sound so little it's negligible on it. And older Marantz at least aren't good at it xD, so I think I'll be back to the Pioneer along many other reasons, and then probably add Wiim Ultra until I can get a good newer AVR, cause here in Au prices of electronics are literally unreasonable and insane. People are selling second hand X2700h for $1200, and a X4700H with none of the HDMI ports working for $1000...it's just nuts, nothing makes sense.

I'm yet to try class D in home audio. I have both class AB and D high end amps for my bass guitar, and there is audible difference between the two, not much but there definitely is. For reference, the 480W class AB outputs about 80% of audible volume the class D does at 1200W...

What is KISS though?

KISS - Keep it simple stupid.
I don't think term "budget" registers very well on ASR, you guys are talking about spending $1000's while I'm talking about spending $100's. Most of my funds for this stuff goes into speakers.
Right now, there are more than a dozen Yamaha Adventage 7.1 receivers w/ pre-outs on Ebay ranging around $200. Going back to around 2014, they are basically the same as the RX-A6A.
The Aiyima A07 Max is $79.
Great DAC's (Topping or SMSL) are around $120.
Before you do anything, you should pick up one of the 3255 chip based amps (Fosi V3, Aiyima A07 Pemium or Max) and a decent DAC and hook them up to your best speakers. You will be blown away and the experience will leave you wondering if you really want to spend $1000 plus on used and/or broken AVR's that aren't going to be as clean and dynamic as the new NE3255 devices. If anything, they are too revealing and punchy. If I can keep the reciever's processing to a minimum, it can actually take some of the "edge" off the NE3255 devices, like a "tube" pre-amp, without hurting the signal too much. That was my goal I think I have achieved it.
I know Yamaha receivers and the only thing I want from them is the 2-channel up-mixing, something Yamaha does very well. Adding more DSP only makes them start to sound crappy on music like pretty much like all the mid-range recievers that I have used.
Look at all the AVR's that Amir has dissed. I guess he could tolerate some of the higher end Denons, ranging between $1K to $2K on Acess4less. A little rich for my blood
My Tv has three HDMI inputs and contray to the misinformation posted above, HDMI to TV in and optical out does not run thru the TV's DAC or processor. The TV is my switcher.
My mains are floor-standers and I run the sub from them using high-level inputs and there is no boomyness or "room node" problems, as there was none when playing them 2-channel. My bass management, if I discern a problem, which I have not) is to move the sub.
I suppose bass managemet, room correction and treatments are great for $10,000 home theaters, but for a sub $500 (minus speakers) multi channel music system that sounds better than most AVR's, they are not needed.

 

[Svend P]

You will be blown away

No he wont. All amplifiers sound the same.

 

[masterhw]

My mains are floor-standers and I run the sub from them using high-level inputs and there is no boomyness or "room node" problems, as there was none when playing them 2-channel. My bass management, if I discern a problem, which I have not) is to move the sub.

I can appreciate the bulk of your sentiment, but I have to see this part as just blissfully ignorant. Not to be that guy, but unless you have taken in-room measurements I'm not sure how you can assert you do not have room modes. I thought my setup sounded good in Pure Direct (no processing) but then I took a measurement and I have a +15dB 60Hz room mode. Maybe this was acting as a pseudo Fletcher-Munson curve which is why it was tolerable.
Decent room correction can make improvements in the double-digit dBs. I have to believe an improvement of this magnitude is far more perceptible than DAC, amp, or DSP related 'unnaturalness' of the sound. And decent room correction isn't hard to get if one makes it a priority, Denon X1700H can be found easily sub-$500 and is competent enough in all areas to produce pretty clean sound.

And since this is a science-skewing forum, stated enough you will get poked about "Adding more DSP only makes them start to sound crappy on music..."
I don't expect the typical user to be able to single-handedly delve such a technical subject, but what DSP does is not black magic and if it produces an undesirable result that's more likely a shortcoming of that specific case than an impossibility for DSP to produce natural sound.

 

[Oddball]

I can appreciate the bulk of your sentiment, but I have to see this part as just blissfully ignorant. Not to be that guy, but unless you have taken in-room measurements I'm not sure how you can assert you do not have room modes. I thought my setup sounded good in Pure Direct (no processing) but then I took a measurement and I have a +15dB 60Hz room mode. Maybe this was acting as a pseudo Fletcher-Munson curve which is why it was tolerable.
Decent room correction can make improvements in the double-digit dBs. I have to believe an improvement of this magnitude is far more perceptible than DAC, amp, or DSP related 'unnaturalness' of the sound. And decent room correction isn't hard to get if one makes it a priority, Denon X1700H can be found easily sub-$500 and is competent enough in all areas to produce pretty clean sound.

And since this is a science-skewing forum, stated enough you will get poked about "Adding more DSP only makes them start to sound crappy on music..."
I don't expect the typical user to be able to single-handedly delve such a technical subject, but what DSP does is not black magic and if it produces an undesirable result that's more likely a shortcoming of that specific case than an impossibility for DSP to produce natural sound.

I wholeheartedly second that. With a note that one should expect $200 AVRs to sound like they do and that at least I don't need yet another post saying how bad $200 AVR sounds like.

 

[Svend P]

Just like your face and the Avatar's.

If you are here to learn, you are in for a doozy. If not, please provide a link to an ABX test where people were able to distinguish between to amplifiers in a level matched blind test. So far none one has.

Page 80 and onward

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-HiFI-Stereo/80s/HiFi-Stereo-Review-1987-01.pdf

 

[Blake Klondike]

Having had a Pioneer of that general generation I think your opinion of the dac and audio is somewhat ridiculous. Some of your proposed solutions are pretty silly.

i think there might be a nicer way to say that.

 

[Blake Klondike]

What sort of budget have you set for this?

i dont know if any have been tested here but i might recommend cambridge audio. my uncle was very knowledgeable re this whole scene and he didn't see the sense in buying crazy expensive equipment.

 

[schotky]

KISS - Keep it simple stupid.
I don't think term "budget" registers very well on ASR, you guys are talking about spending $1000's while I'm talking about spending $100's. Most of my funds for this stuff goes into speakers.
Right now, there are more than a dozen Yamaha Adventage 7.1 receivers w/ pre-outs on Ebay ranging around $200. Going back to around 2014, they are basically the same as the RX-A6A.
The Aiyima A07 Max is $79.
Great DAC's (Topping or SMSL) are around $120.
Before you do anything, you should pick up one of the 3255 chip based amps (Fosi V3, Aiyima A07 Pemium or Max) and a decent DAC and hook them up to your best speakers. You will be blown away and the experience will leave you wondering if you really want to spend $1000 plus on used and/or broken AVR's that aren't going to be as clean and dynamic as the new NE3255 devices. If anything, they are too revealing and punchy. If I can keep the reciever's processing to a minimum, it can actually take some of the "edge" off the NE3255 devices, like a "tube" pre-amp, without hurting the signal too much. That was my goal I think I have achieved it.
I know Yamaha receivers and the only thing I want from them is the 2-channel up-mixing, something Yamaha does very well. Adding more DSP only makes them start to sound crappy on music like pretty much like all the mid-range recievers that I have used.
Look at all the AVR's that Amir has dissed. I guess he could tolerate some of the higher end Denons, ranging between $1K to $2K on Acess4less. A little rich for my blood
My Tv has three HDMI inputs and contray to the misinformation posted above, HDMI to TV in and optical out does not run thru the TV's DAC or processor. The TV is my switcher.
My mains are floor-standers and I run the sub from them using high-level inputs and there is no boomyness or "room node" problems, as there was none when playing them 2-channel. My bass management, if I discern a problem, which I have not) is to move the sub.
I suppose bass managemet, room correction and treatments are great for $10,000 home theaters, but for a sub $500 (minus speakers) multi channel music system that sounds better than most AVR's, they are not needed.

Ahh yes Keep It Simple Stupid xD, yup that's my aim too, that's why I wanna have as less components as possible.

And yeah AVRs don't really fall into the budget budget category for sure, but they are one unit that has all the features that I need and like to use - HDMI (which includes the convenience of automated control too), basic surround, room correction and lastly an EQ. The "only" reasons I'm chasing an AVR.

As discussed in previous posts older AVRs PROBABLY have the old HDMI as the bottleneck, I don't know yet, thus the reason I'd like to find something newer and test that way with HDMI, after I do the optical feed test. HDMI just integrates a lot, including volume control on the AVR from any remote and stuff like that.

And you're very much right about cost and performance, old vs new stuff, classes of amps, they don't always go together in the same direction. Same applies to speakers too. It doesn't mean that the more expensive they are the better or flatter they will sound, higher cost usually tends to imply that and can be true (considering power handling and design are similar that do not add to the price much), but it's not always the case and I have witnessed that so many times when I went shopping for speakers. Can also be very much the other way around too.

I'll have a look at the models you listed, I'm curious to see what are they about.

 

[schotky]

No he wont. All amplifiers sound the same.

All? In theory maybe, in reality no. I used to build and repair amps, and know this for a fact.