AVR for music suggestions

[techsamurai]

That's a long story and thanks for sharing.

Not sure what was the difference between your old Marantz and what model and the 4800H, but pretty sure you can find your lost treasure with 4800H if you set it up right.

XT32 does not "hammer" the high frequencies, it just applies algorithm to whatever is that you requested. It is sometimes successful in catering to your requests but it is in sense like a Jukebox machine - it wont cater to all your requests, only the ones that it has in the store. If you experience that problem you need to up the curve in the high frequency range and check with REW what is it actually delivering. Not to be forgotten, XT32 won't deliver much flexibility as AVR version. $20 D&M app will significantly improve the ability to adjust to your liking, but then if people are looking for lost treasure, then probably a deep-dive equipment like $200 Audy MultiEQ-X app will be needed. EDIT: There will be further improvements from @OCA.

DACs on all modern AVRs are transparent, so no real point in discussing that. It's really up to room EQ and your set-up skills to define the sound you want - within the limits of what the system and the room can produce.

Thanks for the info.

I have the $20 app - it was a worthwhile investment for sure. It's a bit tough to manipulate the curve to perfection but sometimes that's not necessary. I absolutely hate doing REW measurements in my living room They should lower the cost of the other app so more people try it. Ultimately, you want happy customers especially with competition from Dirac.

All I know about DACs is that people seem to dislike some for whatever reason. Their dislike is very passionate so I suspect there may be a reason behind it.

I think I will apply a curtain and limit correction to 500hz or 1,000hz.

After playing with EQ and trying different curves, the impact that EQ has is absolutely shocking but it should be noted that AVRs don't behave the same way.

The Marantz SR8002 of which I owned 3 was reviewed as too polite by some reviewers compared to the Onkyo but a lot of reviewers used it as their reference unit and played music on it, so go figure. It was interesting because I finally understood what they meant when I got the Onkyo RZ50. I was watching a show and the dynamic range was so high, that my living room was turning into a loud theater and my family were complaining even though the dialogue volume was the same. While I'd be ok with that while watching a Star Wars or Marvel movie, it seemed overkill for a series like 1883 or Yellowstone where I want finesse as much as dynamics.

 

[Oddball]

Thanks for the info.

I have the $20 app - it was a worthwhile investment for sure. It's a bit tough to manipulate the curve to perfection but sometimes that's not necessary. I absolutely hate doing REW measurements in my living room They should lower the cost of the other app so more people try it. Ultimately, you want happy customers especially with competition from Dirac.

All I know about DACs is that people seem to dislike some for whatever reason. Their dislike is very passionate so I suspect there may be a reason behind it.

I think I will apply a curtain and limit correction to 500hz or 1,000hz.

After playing with EQ and trying different curves, the impact that EQ has is absolutely shocking but it should be noted that AVRs don't behave the same way.

The Marantz SR8002 of which I owned 3 was reviewed as too polite by some reviewers compared to the Onkyo but a lot of reviewers used it as their reference unit and played music on it. It was interesting because I finally understood what they meant when I got the Onkyo RZ50. I was watching a show and the dynamic range was so high, that my living room was turning into a loud theater and my family were complaining even though the dialogue volume was the same. While I'd be ok with that while watching a Star Wars or Marvel movie, it seemed overkill for a series like 1883 or Yellowstone where I want finesse as much as dynamics.

Not sure that this exactly means for our discussion? Can you pls clarify?

 

[techsamurai]

Not sure that this exactly means for our discussion? Can you pls clarify?

Whose discussion? Ours or the OPs?

 

[masterhw]

Not sure how technically inclined you are but in experimenting with different house curves and phase alignment I think I've heard my Denon sound like about 8 different audio products at this point. If the spec sheet and lab tests say these things should all be performing at or beyond the threshold of hearing, almost certainly the differences we hear (which are sometimes clear as day) are not the raw hardware but the tuning. I can even install a Marantz emulating HF rolloff to my Denon with OCA's A1 Evo suite. I feel quite in control and able to make my hardware sound how I want it to, and not at the mercy of some far-off 'sound master.'

 

[Oddball]

Whose discussion? Ours or the OPs?

Well you tell me as not sure what you really want as an answer.

 

[techsamurai]

Well you tell me as not sure what you really want as an answer.

I was just replying to your information which was valuable - I still think it's relevant to the OP because more than likely if they are not satisfied with the sound post calibration, they may also have to go through a similar path where they try other gear, try playing with EQ.

EQ transforms sound and shockingly affects the entire soundstage. And I was saying how nice it would have been to have full flexibility of Audyssey for less than $220 (20 for mobile which you buy first and $200 for the desktop). I think more people would have taken advantage of that if it was priced more reasonably.

 

[schotky]

@schotky, based on recent postings (and your recent acquisition of the Marantz), it appears you may prefer a "warmer sound" and may have found the Pioneer too "harsh". You can easily get that warm sound by purchasing any modern AVR w/decent room correction and roll off the highs (say beyond 14-15 kHz) to achieve this! Your external DAC may already be doing this and that's probably why you prefer that sound (not the DAC SINAD rating!).

I have the Denon 3800 and purchased the Dirac Live FB license. You may enjoy this combo as well if you auditioned it in your home (or @OCA's latest A1 Evo Acoustica if you want to stick w/Audyssey)!

OK I know what you mean, but really, it isn't that, I like the extended high frequencies, I even boost them as needed, depending on the music, but mostly listen to everything set to flat. The Pioneer sounds harsh to me cause its top end isn't sounding that natural, sounds digitized and messed up, and if I boost that it just sounds worse, cause I'm boosting something already that isn't that good. If I boost the same just with the external DAC is sounds amazing.

The external DAC is dead flat and rolls off beyond 20kHz, sounds more even and refined throughout the whole range of the freq spectrum especially the treble, all instruments in the song sound properly leveled, clean and natural. The main difference between it and the Pioneer is it's smooth and natural, doesn't sound digitized, and it has bigger sound stage and spaciousness, has more depth... I don't know how else to describe this. With it I've heard some sounds in songs that I haven't before, probably they were there anyway, but not as audible as with the external DAC and they are much easier to hear without even focusing on hearing things like these.

I'm a musician as well and play in a band, and I know exactly how a hi-hat, cymbals, crash etc sound naturally and I'm comparing to that. With the external DAC the system sounds the closest if not the same to that. Doesn't sound digitized.

And honestly I don't really care much about Audyssey or Dirac as long as the amp has manual option to adjust standing waves in a room. It's fiddling around a little bit manually but you do it only once. That's what I've done with the Pioneer cause it's VERY flexible and offers fantastic options to do that, it just doesn't deliver as much of a polished sound on its own, which has nothing to do with the room correction for what I'm talking about.

 

[schotky]

Do you have any examples of something that measures good and sounds bad?

Yes, the Pioneer in question.. XD haha. No really, there is equipment like that. For example, some bass guitar equipment that I've used in the past as I used to repair these as well, like Trace Elliot amps and cabs, Eden cabs, most of the Behringer equipment, some Mark Bass amps etc

The pickups in the instruments are probably the easiest indicator of this, they are all made to paper specs and calculations. Until you hear them you CAN'T know how they sound even with the frequency graph in front of you. You can probably only have a rough estimate.

The pickup that I use atm, if you see the graph you'd probably think ok this is weird... It's actually the most well regarded sounding pickup out there. Or the other way around. Almost perfect measured graph, you hear it and it's a meh at best. I've been through all this

This is pretty much like school grades, may be great on paper but bad in real life, or the other way around which is less likely but not impossible, or straightforward thing as well, good on paper good in real life. There's no rule really, the paper just does suggest a high possibility of the paper results, it's not guaranteed

 

[schotky]

Not really sure why so much negative energy. Seems like you got your $200 worth and reviewing vintage models.

Yes, newer Marantz models are better and can do more for you, but not for $200. I can definitively recommend Marantz C30, AV-20 or AV-10. They are amazing but also there is a price attached to them. Not much different will be Denon 3800H which one can have for $1K or less.

Negative energy? I'm just saying what I like and what I don't so I can navigate and filter out things that don't work for me. Saying a "negative" thing can't really sound positive I guess haha. I'm pointing things out in the Marantz (generally considered high end) that are disappointing for me in terms of how limited it is compared to the Pioneer (generally not considered high end), sound quality excluded, the Marantz is a bit better there but that's it.

Yes $200, but the Pioneer is 2y older and also costs around that much now, probably less, and it smashes the Marantz in audio options, intuitiveness and convenience.

Thanks for the recommendation though, looks like I'd just need to try different year models and brands and see what works for me.

 

[schotky]

Yeah there is a problem with different ear shapes externally and internally as well as ear hygiene , but I would not dismiss measurements so easily. Good sound is what produces at least decent graphs, and then you still have to like hearing it. The real question is what is a decent graph and that is what people will not really agree upon. How much tolerance and in what range for broader dips? How narrow can a hole or a peak be to be good to ignored? Put 10 members in the room and pray they come out undamaged .

After that comes the home curve, which is very different for different people and systems as we know. As they say, when the "Hell Freezes Over" and you can leave Hotel California at will, we will find a custom curve to agree upon.

But pls keep on the good work and pls PM me when have LFE+Main and LFE distribution ready.

Haha I like your take here

 

[schotky]

Its LFE+Main, plus LFE distribution, so kind of cube in 4D . But understand that very few people are interested in that as not many systems that can support and at the end you do need to compromise based on specific gear and room. So take your time. ART is for Christmas in D&M family, so let's see what they have in store for $999. You are doing a great job for what really matters - and for free to all users.

I don't share my graphs as 1) I don't have them so can't pursue my OCA and also to stop the "upgrade" bug; 2) don't want to argue with other members around what is a "good graph" 3) my graphs pretty good and I chose what I think was sounding best.

Graphs are really complicated. Frequency response is obviously (or not?) most important, but then there is phase, group delay and other measurements. Not really possible to optimise all of them at the same time. Even though this is ASR, I agree that a good pair of ears will help .

Yup, there's a technically good graph, and a graph that you like. Like Picasso, his drawings are technically weird, but are likeable. The opposite is Piet Mondrian, technically looks good, but you always wonder what are you looking at.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

For that to happen at those frequencies I think you need a beast of a sub.

Less than you might think. 30Hz isn't that hard for a sub to do and punches through walls as if it was nothing
Pretty easy to get to a point where it is annoying to a neighbor.

20Hz is definitely more difficult unless your neighbor has a display cabinet with glasses inside that start rattling.

I have no idea of what your points are. The OP said there was a difference in sound between two DACs that were supposed to sound identical, and my response was that everything you can hear can be measured.

Again IN THEORY. This is a PRACTICAL scenario.

We have not measured the systems of the OP nor does the OP have the ability to do so in a scientifically accurate manner.

In general agree: there should be no audible differences between the internal DAC of the AVR and the external DAC he hooked up to it's analog amp stage.

In practice there is a myriad of things that can make a difference:
- one of the DACs is badly designed and colors the sound to an audible degree
- invisible/always-on post processing / equalization on the internal AVR signal path
- output of the external DAC overloading the input stages of the amp
- general lack of volume matching (IMHO this is most likely the cause of any perceived differences by the OP)
- perceptional bias because comparisons have not been done in a double blind manner (this is also a big one, especially with everyone and their mom going: "REEEE, AVR crap for music!!)

Yeah, in a lab environment, perceptional bias should be eliminated. But that is not the reality of how we listen to music.

Academic question: What exactly am I supposed to do, as a normal listener, if e.g.: my dumb ass perceptional bias tells me that my RME sounds better than my X4800H? It's not as If I can willingly "unhear" that, even if my rational brain knows that there is no spoon ... erm... difference, that there, scientifically, can't be a difference.

Do you have any examples of something that measures good and sounds bad?

This one is extremely easy:
Any speaker that has good measurements but whose sonic signature you dislike. Ofc, a well designed PEQ can fix these things but the point stands: ears are individual, our bode plots are unique, my ears do not hear the same way yours do.

Manufacturers design stuff to fit the preferences of MOST people. Not all of them.

I agree that there should be no discernable differences on competently designed electronics. Provided they run in their linear range and play nice with each other.

 

[schotky]

I'll regale you with my story and also state that music = movies. I would pick a home theater that prioritizes music and dialogue over bass every day.

Movies are 80% music - all good movies score +1 on a musical system and drop up to 5 points in a bad theater that plays explosions like a whisper. My commercial movie theater close to me is one of the few real IMAX theaters and when it was renovated, they actually kept the THX speakers as I guess there was no upgrade. I've heard that system pierce ears with a whimper with people leaving the theater and crying outside. But it's not musical. Zero connection to any song.

On the other hand, my system was musical even without a sub. I'm not Amir but I knew the bass was good enough and sure enough measurements 15 years later showed extension into the 20s. Movies were a jaw dropping experience because when the music, it was just an experience. Music made you want to dance even though I would never do that normally.

About 2 years ago, I decided to upgrade mostly for HDMI 2.1 and new Audyssey or Dirac Live. I thought about keep my old AVR as an amp and play music through it, if I needed to or getting an external amp assuming one could fit in the cabinet.

I decided to upgrade and I went from an Onkyo RZ50 with Dirac Live, to a Marantz Cinema 70 powered by my old AMP, and finally a Denon 4800h powered by itself and then by my old AVR with the toroidal.

I had to tweak the 4800h's curve massively to come close to the old Marantz but the jaw dropping part is missing. It sounds great but not the same. I'm too busy to deal with it at this point and I can always play music on the old Marantz but someday I'd love to try to get the 4800h somehow to sound like the old AVR. SteveDallas said that Audyssey XT32 hammers the high frequencies and I'm beginning to suspect he's right as playing with the treble tone improves the sound.

Bottomline, get a lot of AVRs and try them out. Play a song you like - if you find yourself analyzing the sound instead of just enjoying, then it sounds wrong. Your brain is doing the listening over your ears and that's because it's detecting issues with the sound.

The sound could also be affected by the DAC and no amount of tinkering will get the 4800h to 8002 levels but I don't play with DACs enough to know their impact.

I think I know exactly what you're talking about here, and I feel the same way about audio and matches my experience with audio as well. Thanks for sharing this.

As you said, it's always the best option just to try out different systems and whatever works for me from there. The thing is this is the most obvious thing to do, but not easily done, the systems are not that easy to acquire and some cost a lot. And I'd have to try them on my setup at home, so not sure I can have 10 different systems at once xD. Fiddling around with them would be interesting though, if I had had them

As for DACs as whole units, I'm just saying what really improved the sound for me once changing that component, regardless if that makes technical sense or not

 

[schotky]

Less than you might think. 30Hz isn't that hard for a sub to do and punches through walls as if it was nothing
Pretty easy to get to a point where it is annoying to a neighbor.

20Hz is definitely more difficult unless your neighbor has a display cabinet with glasses inside that start rattling.

Again IN THEORY. This is a PRACTICAL scenario.

We have not measured the systems of the OP nor does the OP have the ability to do so in a scientifically accurate manner.

In general agree: there should be no audible differences between the internal DAC of the AVR and the external DAC he hooked up to it's analog amp stage.

In practice there is a myriad of things that can make a difference:
- one of the DACs is badly designed and colors the sound to an audible degree
- invisible/always-on post processing / equalization on the internal AVR signal path
- output of the external DAC overloading the input stages of the amp
- general lack of volume matching (IMHO this is most likely the cause of any perceived differences by the OP)
- perceptional bias because comparisons have not been done in a double blind manner (this is also a big one, especially with everyone and their mom going: "REEEE, AVR crap for music!!)

Yeah, in a lab environment, perceptional bias should be eliminated. But that is not the reality of how we listen to music.

Academic question: What exactly am I supposed to do, as a normal listener, if e.g.: my dumb ass perceptional bias tells me that my RME sounds better than my X4800H? It's not as If I can willingly "unhear" that, even if my rational brain knows that there is no spoon ... erm... difference, that there, scientifically, can't be a difference.

This one is extremely easy:
Any speaker that has good measurements but whose sonic signature you dislike. Ofc, a well designed PEQ can fix these things but the point stands: ears are individual, our bode plots are unique, my ears do not hear the same way yours do.

Manufacturers design stuff to fit the preferences of MOST people. Not all of them.

I agree that there should be no discernable differences on competently designed electronics. Provided they run in their linear range and play nice with each other.

I'm typing on a phone so please excuse not separating paragraphs for replying, I know it's easier to follow that way but not sure how to easily do it on a phone.

30Hz is a different story, we were talking about infrasonic sub 20Hz, the inaudible range. My 10" sub goes to 27-28Hz with a push, below that is usually hardest to achieve effectively unless it's a giant sub

Regarding the DAC, it's definitely not a volume issue, I am aware of that. In theory and technically it does make sense that DACs should all be transparent, but they do have a circuit around them and clocks as a unit. Then I'm also unsure why are there audible differences I described above, like instrument separation, sound stage, smoothness, clarity etc... It is confusing to me

Maybe there's something else in the audio path that's always on as you mentioned, and that messes up the sound and external DAC just bypasses that... I don't know. I'm not claiming the DAC is the issue 100%, but using that component externally as a whole device, does audibly improve the sound for me on both the Pioneer and the Marantz.... So yeah I don't know

And as you mentioned, in THEORY and in PRACTICE aren't always the same

 

[schotky]

Thanks for the info.

I have the $20 app - it was a worthwhile investment for sure. It's a bit tough to manipulate the curve to perfection but sometimes that's not necessary. I absolutely hate doing REW measurements in my living room They should lower the cost of the other app so more people try it. Ultimately, you want happy customers especially with competition from Dirac.

All I know about DACs is that people seem to dislike some for whatever reason. Their dislike is very passionate so I suspect there may be a reason behind it.

I think I will apply a curtain and limit correction to 500hz or 1,000hz.

After playing with EQ and trying different curves, the impact that EQ has is absolutely shocking but it should be noted that AVRs don't behave the same way.

The Marantz SR8002 of which I owned 3 was reviewed as too polite by some reviewers compared to the Onkyo but a lot of reviewers used it as their reference unit and played music on it, so go figure. It was interesting because I finally understood what they meant when I got the Onkyo RZ50. I was watching a show and the dynamic range was so high, that my living room was turning into a loud theater and my family were complaining even though the dialogue volume was the same. While I'd be ok with that while watching a Star Wars or Marvel movie, it seemed overkill for a series like 1883 or Yellowstone where I want finesse as much as dynamics.

I have the same overview and thoughts on this and my experience confirms that

 

[Svend P]

Any speaker that has good measurements but whose sonic signature you dislike

Then it doesn't have good measurements. But please name one.

 

[Svend P]

most of the Behringer equipment

Most of Behringer probably doesn't measure well. But please name one concrete model.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

As you said, it's always the best option just to try out different systems and whatever works for me from there.

Actually, the best option is to buy competently designed, audibly transparent hardware with Parametric EQ capabilities.
Learn to use PEQ to custom tailor the sound to your personal preference & room conditions.

That way you can get the best of both worlds: absolutely accurate sound or personal preference with a switch of a simple profile.

Regarding the DAC, it's definitely not a volume issue, I am aware of that.

Forgive my bluntness but did you measure the voltages with a test signal at the speaker terminals?
If not: you cannot assure a volume match within 0.1dB in any comparison.

Effects of subtle volume differences can be all kinds of things. From "more open" to "livelier", "more natural" etc. pp.
That is the mean thing about them: we do not consciously perceive them as "this is louder" just yet.

Then it doesn't have good measurements. But please name one.

RME ADI-2 DAC and a Focal Clear professional.

Both get good measurements from ASR (aside from the X-max issue at high volumes) yet in said combination they sound very sterile/lifeless to me. A simple 60Hz bass shelf at +2dB totally fixes that issue.

Even the Harman target allows for personal preference in the bass area.

 

[Svend P]

Focal Clear

Doesn't measure good.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Doesn't measure good.

Way to miss the actual point, mate.
Even if it measured 100% on the Harman target curve and got raving reviews from Harman fanatics, it would still sound bad to me and other people. In my case, the Harman target is too bass heavy for my liking, so I'd apply a negative bass shelf instead of a positive one. Same shit, different color.

Just accept that there is subjectivity and taste involved in audio. A technically good measurement does not guarantee an enjoyable listening experience when it comes to transducers.

Electronics are a different animal, these are easy to get to a transparent level where they cease to matter.