AVR for music suggestions

[schotky]

You could buy a Umik-1 and measure the difference. If you get a receiver with Dirac you are going to need one anyway

That mic seems like a good replacement to the supplied one that costs less than a chewing gum, part of the reason room correction underperfoms, thanks for the suggestion. But how do you measure this... I'm not sure what I'm describing is really measurable, I think you can only hear that. Unless you mean something else.

 

[Svend P]

That mic seems like a good replacement to the supplied one that costs less than a chewing gum, part of the reason room correction underperfoms, thanks for the suggestion. But how do you measure this... I'm not sure what I'm describing is really measurable, I think you can only hear that. Unless you mean something else.

Everything you can hear can be measured.

"Things that cannot be measured"

Something the subjectivist crowd often brings up. "There are things we cannot measure but the human ear/brain can hear it." We retort, an analyzer can hear much better than any human can. Which is the truth. But thinking about the question I did being to wonder... Could it be possible for there...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Svend P]

What you are looking for is a different frequency response with one DAC that will explain what you hear. Dirac doesn't come with a microphone, only Audyssey.

 

[schotky]

I would be curious to see the diagram, not doubting you but sometimes the details get lost in those not really well and clear manuals. For example, in the SMs that I do have, the 1020, 1025, 1018 mentioned, the DAC WM8728 is for the digital path, whereas for the analog, for some strange reason they use the AK4588 (for the 1020/1025), and in the case of the 1020/1025, the AK4114. Again, to me, and likely to many others, this is mostly academic, DACs at those level, while not great on specs, usually are not the bottleneck for most people with normal or less than normal hearing. But people hear, or think what they hear, so I stopped debating on claimed audibility a while back.

OK attaching the file seems to be too big for this forum, here's a link to wetransfer with download availability for 7 days. Attaching some screenshots as well from my phone, hopefully they are readable enough, if not just use the link to download the full pdf

Pioneer VSX-1021 service manual.pdf

1 file sent via WeTransfer, the simplest way to send your files around the world

we.tl

 

[schotky]

Everything you can hear can be measured.

"Things that cannot be measured"

Something the subjectivist crowd often brings up. "There are things we cannot measure but the human ear/brain can hear it." We retort, an analyzer can hear much better than any human can. Which is the truth. But thinking about the question I did being to wonder... Could it be possible for there...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I'm aware of that too, I don't know how to measure that specific thing though

 

[schotky]

What you are looking for is a different frequency response with one DAC that will explain what you hear. Dirac doesn't come with a microphone, only Audyssey.

View attachment 450902

OK I don't know what software I need to measure this, I'm just thinking how will this help. Measure it or not the difference is there regardless of what it is, I just know what makes it better

 

[Svend P]

OK I don't know what software I need to measure this, I'm just thinking how will this help. Measure it or not the difference is there regardless of what it is, I just know what makes it better

You need a computer and REW. There is a fault or a wrong setting in your system or just level difference, it could be interesting to find out what it is

REW room acoustics and audio device measurement and analysis software

REW is free software for room acoustic measurement, loudspeaker measurement and audio device measurement and analysis

www.roomeqwizard.com

 

[schotky]

You need a computer and REW. There is a fault or a wrong setting in your system or just level difference, it could be interesting to find out what it is

REW room acoustics and audio device measurement and analysis software

REW is free software for room acoustic measurement, loudspeaker measurement and audio device measurement and analysis

www.roomeqwizard.com

Now I'm curious to do it. So I just need a good mic to hook up to the pc and run REW? I have a Rode Videomic Go, is that type of mic good enough for this?

Do you position the mic as you do when doing room correction and run a test sound? If so what test sound, some details would be helpful to do this correctly

I guess I'd need to run the same thing on both internal and external DACs to compare

 

[kiwifi]

Damn that's a great deal, and shipping turning out that way just added to the greatness

Unfortunately it has all turned to custard, because instead of receiving the AVC-X3800H that I ordered, Amazon sent me an AVR-X2800H inside an AVC-X3800H box. Gutted!

 

[schotky]

Unfortunately it has all turned to custard, because instead of receiving the AVC-X3800H that I ordered, Amazon sent me an AVR-X2800H inside an AVC-X3800H box. Gutted!

Haha damn yeah that's not fun. Seems like someone probably bought the 3800 and returned a 2800, probably that happened

But you know what, since this is international shipment you might be eligible for full refund without returning the unit, that would be a win

 

[livinon2wheels]

Ok here you go...try a Schitt Audio Syn as the processor. Its totally analog and quite clean. you have the option of 4 or 5 channels so it fits your 4 channel requirement. with a sub output. You will need amplifiers but there are quite good class D amps available from Fosi and others that will supply 100 wpc without much fuss. For not much money. The Schitt Syn is a bit over 300 and is surprisingly good. I am currently using that with my TV with totally satisfactory results. Subs from Dayton audio are not expensive and perform well for the price. I would buy two of them. Now you need amplifiers, a pair of stereo amps class D you should be able to grab a pair of them for 300 or less. voila a system that will surprise you with how good it is. The Dayton subs get well below 30 hz so they are great for music. For movies ok too if you dont have too high expectations. I'll be curious to know what you buy and how you like it. Yes, budget matters in the real world. You and I live in the same environment with too few dollars chasing too expensive products. BTW the Syn has optical and rca inputs for audio sounds very transparent. Be advised, no tone controls though. No meters to set levels. Everything is done by ear to suit your taste. It won't be for everyone, but its working for me. I like not having to fuss with it and it just works without complaint...no HDMI problems cause it has no HDMI ports on it. Legacy proven tech that just works with no fuss. I was skeptical at first but I decided to try it and I am glad I did. My LR system currently consists of The Syn as a processor, A TCL tv qm6k 65" feeding the processor via the optical port the processor is hooked to 3 stereo VTV Hypex Class D 500 wpc amps driving a pair of updated ADC 303ax speakers with new soft dome tweeters and new crossovers in the front and a pair of cheap Dayton audio bookshelf speakers for rear channels and a JBL center channel speaker featuring an aluminum dome tweeter. The combination is pretty satisfying. As a basic 5 channel system it works pretty darn well. The variation in the 5 channel effects depends on the program material. Many movies come thru as though encoded in a dolby codec which was surprising. Older movies that don't have the channel separation are not quite as lively but overall quite listenable and with the subs at least we are getting something approaching the bandwidth of the source signal and that is pretty incredible. As an aside, you surely do not need 500 wpc for modest speakers but when I got the amps I was future proofing the system to cover whatever long term speakers I might buy once I move home again. I encourage you to take a hard look at what I did and modify it for your situation, I think you will be more than pleased if not blown away.

 

[schotky]

Ok here you go...try a Schitt Audio Syn as the processor. Its totally analog and quite clean. you have the option of 4 or 5 channels so it fits your 4 channel requirement. with a sub output. You will need amplifiers but there are quite good class D amps available from Fosi and others that will supply 100 wpc without much fuss. For not much money. The Schitt Syn is a bit over 300 and is surprisingly good. I am currently using that with my TV with totally satisfactory results. Subs from Dayton audio are not expensive and perform well for the price. I would buy two of them. Now you need amplifiers, a pair of stereo amps class D you should be able to grab a pair of them for 300 or less. voila a system that will surprise you with how good it is. The Dayton subs get well below 30 hz so they are great for music. For movies ok too if you dont have too high expectations. I'll be curious to know what you buy and how you like it. Yes, budget matters in the real world. You and I live in the same environment with too few dollars chasing too expensive products. BTW the Syn has optical and rca inputs for audio sounds very transparent. Be advised, no tone controls though. No meters to set levels. Everything is done by ear to suit your taste. It won't be for everyone, but its working for me. I like not having to fuss with it and it just works without complaint...no HDMI problems cause it has no HDMI ports on it. Legacy proven tech that just works with no fuss. I was skeptical at first but I decided to try it and I am glad I did. My LR system currently consists of The Syn as a processor, A TCL tv qm6k 65" feeding the processor via the optical port the processor is hooked to 3 stereo VTV Hypex Class D 500 wpc amps driving a pair of updated ADC 303ax speakers with new soft dome tweeters and new crossovers in the front and a pair of cheap Dayton audio bookshelf speakers for rear channels and a JBL center channel speaker featuring an aluminum dome tweeter. The combination is pretty satisfying. As a basic 5 channel system it works pretty darn well. The variation in the 5 channel effects depends on the program material. Many movies come thru as though encoded in a dolby codec which was surprising. Older movies that don't have the channel separation are not quite as lively but overall quite listenable and with the subs at least we are getting something approaching the bandwidth of the source signal and that is pretty incredible. As an aside, you surely do not need 500 wpc for modest speakers but when I got the amps I was future proofing the system to cover whatever long term speakers I might buy once I move home again. I encourage you to take a hard look at what I did and modify it for your situation, I think you will be more than pleased if not blown away.

That is an interesting proposition. I had a look at the Schiit Syn, and it is indeed a good option for basic surround setup. But you already mentioned the no HDMI no problems thing. And that's the biggest drawback for me on it. I need HDMI. Things are more integrated and automated that way.

Right now with HDMI I turn everything on and off with one button. And another ridiculous thing that is an Australian issue really, is that Syn is $300 in the US, in here is $850...i don't know what the f#ck is wrong with Australia, if anything makes sense here then I'm Brad Pitt.

But still, no HDMI is an issue for me. Wiim Ultra is a good option though, has HDMI plus it's a great streamer all in one. I can use the amp in the Pioneer, the amp itself is actually pretty good, and I have the rest, speakers and a decent sub which has a parametric EQ in it for fine tuning for room correction if the system doesn't support that.

The only bottleneck is that digital section in the Pioneer. Whatever it is, the DAC or not I don't care, importantly that's what messes up the sound for my liking, and external DAC as a whole device fixes that.

So I don't know, if I don't find a Marantz SR5008 and or higher model, or Denon X3400 and up I'll probably go for the Wiim Ultra. That's my thinking atm...

 

[Vacceo]

Everything you can hear can be measured.

"Things that cannot be measured"

Something the subjectivist crowd often brings up. "There are things we cannot measure but the human ear/brain can hear it." We retort, an analyzer can hear much better than any human can. Which is the truth. But thinking about the question I did being to wonder... Could it be possible for there...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And a lot of what you cannot hear, can be measured too. That is particularly true if you´re interested in the infrasonic component of your system (and why your neightbours may hate you).

 

[Fahzz]

What you are looking for is a different frequency response with one DAC that will explain what you hear. Dirac doesn't come with a microphone, only Audyssey.

View attachment 450902

Is this a part of an article? Where can I find it?

 

[Svend P]

Is this a part of an article? Where can I find it?

I don't know. I saw it first time here on ASR and saved it for future reference

 

[Fahzz]

I don't know. I saw it first time here on ASR and saved it for future reference

I saved it too.

 

[livinon2wheels]

That is an interesting proposition. I had a look at the Schiit Syn, and it is indeed a good option for basic surround setup. But you already mentioned the no HDMI no problems thing. And that's the biggest drawback for me on it. I need HDMI. Things are more integrated and automated that way.

Right now with HDMI I turn everything on and off with one button. And another ridiculous thing that is an Australian issue really, is that Syn is $300 in the US, in here is $850...i don't know what the f#ck is wrong with Australia, if anything makes sense here then I'm Brad Pitt.

But still, no HDMI is an issue for me. Wiim Ultra is a good option though, has HDMI plus it's a great streamer all in one. I can use the amp in the Pioneer, the amp itself is actually pretty good, and I have the rest, speakers and a decent sub which has a parametric EQ in it for fine tuning for room correction if the system doesn't support that.

The only bottleneck is that digital section in the Pioneer. Whatever it is, the DAC or not I don't care, importantly that's what messes up the sound for my liking, and external DAC as a whole device fixes that.

So I don't know, if I don't find a Marantz SR5008 and or higher model, or Denon X3400 and up I'll probably go for the Wiim Ultra. That's my thinking atm...

Interesting the difference in price for the Syn down under and here. Wow. Never would have expected that. There is another option which I am exploring as well. On Amazon there are basic 5.1 decoder boxes for sale. I found one that has a remote with volume, tone controls, and 3 inputs. Optical, usb, and HDMI for a tick over 200 bucks. I am seriously going to give that a try. It decodes dolby digital and a couple of other formats. Certainly not everything offered today and no atmos either but what you get with basic movie streaming services and 60Hz 4k video. It may be a total piece of junk but if it turns out not to be, this may end up being my 'end game' tv/movie setup due to simplicity. Its cheap and if it works well enough I am not too proud to use it.

I have a real problem shelling out big money for HT receiver/processors that are horribly flawed. My recent Emotiva experience still stings pretty badly. So I now have a strong distrust for HDMI based connectivity. Yeah I know, it limits the formats you can exploit, but when the receiver doesn't function correctly or reliably I am the one that feels exploited.

 

[schotky]

And a lot of what you cannot hear, can be measured too. That is particularly true if you´re interested in the infrasonic component of your system (and why your neightbours may hate you).

Of course it can be measured. But if it can't be heard why would the neighbors hate me... Plus, I don't think my subwoofer is capable of producing that low frequencies at that intensity, that would probably require an 18" driver sub or something like that

 

[schotky]

Interesting the difference in price for the Syn down under and here. Wow. Never would have expected that. There is another option which I am exploring as well. On Amazon there are basic 5.1 decoder boxes for sale. I found one that has a remote with volume, tone controls, and 3 inputs. Optical, usb, and HDMI for a tick over 200 bucks. I am seriously going to give that a try. It decodes dolby digital and a couple of other formats. Certainly not everything offered today and no atmos either but what you get with basic movie streaming services and 60Hz 4k video. It may be a total piece of junk but if it turns out not to be, this may end up being my 'end game' tv/movie setup due to simplicity. Its cheap and if it works well enough I am not too proud to use it.

I have a real problem shelling out big money for HT receiver/processors that are horribly flawed. My recent Emotiva experience still stings pretty badly. So I now have a strong distrust for HDMI based connectivity. Yeah I know, it limits the formats you can exploit, but when the receiver doesn't function correctly or reliably I am the one that feels exploited.

Yeah the AUD isn't that great, and on top of that there are some ridiculous margins.... You don't want to hear about alcohol especially if you are importing it yourself. The original price, plus the conversion, plus the ultra high margin, PLUS about $105 per liter, for stores it's about about 30-50% of that per liter, I keed you not.... It's total insanity. Australia has officially lost its mind in most regards

Now when you mention this and that and then "it's about $200", in my head is more like $5-600 . On that note I managed to snatch a Marantz SR5008 for $200 which is actually a great deal here. I did some testing, I'll make a new post below regarding that

 

[schotky]

Ok I managed to get a Marantz SR5008 for $200 so I can at least compare and do some testing. To some of you, technically this might seem silly or ridiculous or whatever, it doesn't matter, I'm writing what I hear, so there's that.

Did some testing and comparing, and in short, the Marantz does sound better than the Pioneer, but is worse in almost any other regard. Biggest improvement is in the treble, it's cleaner and smoother, and the bass section is somewhat different too, maybe a little tighter. I did include the external DAC in testing on the Marantz too.

Again, I'm saying what I hear, whether that might be technically ridiculous or not I don't care... The Marantz sounds better than the Pioneer, but it isn't a match to the external DAC. It sits somewhere in between in audio quality that is audible to me. This is all settings flat or default and pure direct on all tests, and then even with some features or options engaged.

But, setting up and adjusting the Marantz... Boy is it terrible... Things as simple as adjusting subwoofer volume, you have to turn off music, go back into the deep settings in the GUI on the TV and adjust the level visually only on the screen... The worst way the adjust any audio. Most settings are like this.

Audyssey on this model. It's bad. It's worse than the Pioneer's MCACC which isn't really known to be a great room correction software, plus you can't tweak anything. I know it's old, the new XT32 is supposed to be better I really hope it's much better than this, but the Pioneer is already two years older than this Marantz. When I ran the room correction the sound got messed up, got the mids so scooped and the rear surround speakers so loud they overwhelmed the fronts by so much it actually made me laugh . It just sounds way better with it off. Another stupid thing about it is, you can't access some settings unless you run Audyssey... Why, just why. The Pioneer doesn't have any of these limitations, while the Marantz is full of it.

It took me about 2h to get everything set up almost the way I like it (almost cause of its many limitations and lack of options), and looking at the inbuilt small display, I have no idea what the current audio mode is selected. It took me about half an hour on the Pioneer and have clear visibility of what mode I'm in. On the remote you can't control any useful functions related to audio unlike the Pioneer without getting into the GUI. You can control literally everything on the Pioneer (except the Graphic EQ) without going into the GUI and while audio is playing so you can hear the adjustments real time. This is just the tip of the iceberg of how limited and non intuitive the Marantz is compared to the Pioneer. Some audio functions are even only available on the front panel buttons... I also don't know why, I couldn't find those to be adjusted on the remote or the GUI. They may be hidden somewhere where I might have missed, but if they are that hard to find, again... Why??

So, except for the sound which is audibly better than the Pioneer, the Marantz is a disappointment in almost every other regard for my liking. This model at least, I really hope newer models are better than this. Seems like this Marantz at least, isn't meant for people who'd like to have more control over their sound and setup, in a convenient way.

I'll use it for a few more days to see if I can fine tune it further, but it already lacks A LOT of options and convenient features that the Pioneer has. And I'm only referring to the sound options and features. So far for me, the Pioneer is much enjoyable to use with an external DAC, than the Marantz on its own.