AVR for music suggestions

[schotky]

Been there once, for a week over 30 years ago! Used to do business with a coupla Australian concert promoters for logistics.

That's it "coupla" . I actually moved here about 9y ago from Europe, the US was the preferred choice but at the moment there was an option for here so I did that. Have a few close friends in the US in CA, NC and IL

They say it has changed a lot since then, some important things and not necessarily in a good way, probably similar to the US just on a smaller scale

Last time I went to concert was just 2 months ago, it was pretty good

 

[Chrispy]

That's it "coupla" . I actually moved here about 9y ago from Europe, the US was the preferred choice but at the moment there was an option for here so I did that. Have a few close friends in the US in CA, NC and IL

They say it has changed a lot since then, some important things and not necessarily in a good way, probably similar to the US just on a smaller scale

Last time I went to concert was just 2 months ago, it was pretty good

I really wanted to move to Australia after that visit I mentioned, but that was way before yours (December 79) I meant that the concert promoters I knew were two in number in any case, they were both part of same company but beyond that not sure how they split things up).

In connection with them have a great small world story I have mentioned many a time, but again fwiw...I was based on west coast of California, both SF/LA, but had a business trip to attend the 'shoe show' (largely a bunch of partying/samples in various suites of the Plaza Hotel in NYC); at the time I handled logistics/customs for quite a few Italian to US shoe folk....arrived on a flight into JFK a day or so before the "show" but a strike for the bus service I had planned to use (as it went close to my hotel) was not happening, and they were actively organizing multiple folk into single cabs to get downtown so I joined three others. One was a gal going to the same shoe thing and we chatted a bit, then asked the two guys and they said they were concert promoters from Australia. I mentioned I worked on logistics with a few such Australian guys, do you know them and mentioned names....they said that's us, mate essentially. We actually also were at same hotel on same floor as neighbors to make it even stranger. A while later I got to go to Australia and visit these guys on a sales trip and one was out of country, the other treated me as if I was family. Had a great time. Wanted to move there

 

[OCA]

That SMSL DAC has sound color filters one of which could be on by default which could explain the difference you are hearing. All DACs also have high frequency roll off filters sometimes user switchable between various linear phase to minimum phase types. The differences between these are mostly inaudible to people over a certain age but maybe not the case with you.

 

[schotky]

I really wanted to move to Australia after that visit I mentioned, but that was way before yours (December 79) I meant that the concert promoters I knew were two in number in any case, they were both part of same company but beyond that not sure how they split things up).

In connection with them have a great small world story I have mentioned many a time, but again fwiw...I was based on west coast of California, both SF/LA, but had a business trip to attend the 'shoe show' (largely a bunch of partying/samples in various suites of the Plaza Hotel in NYC); at the time I handled logistics/customs for quite a few Italian to US shoe folk....arrived on a flight into JFK a day or so before the "show" but a strike for the bus service I had planned to use (as it went close to my hotel) was not happening, and they were actively organizing multiple folk into single cabs to get downtown so I joined three others. One was a gal going to the same shoe thing and we chatted a bit, then asked the two guys and they said they were concert promoters from Australia. I mentioned I worked on logistics with a few such Australian guys, do you know them and mentioned names....they said that's us, mate essentially. We actually also were at same hotel on same floor as neighbors to make it even stranger. A while later I got to go to Australia and visit these guys on a sales trip and one was out of country, the other treated me as if I was family. Had a great time. Wanted to move there

Right right, well yeah that was quite a long time ago, but really I don't think you've made the wrong decision of not moving, Aus is sort of like a more basic or "lite" version of the US, with less of everything including the goods and bads, mostly less of the goods really, and then add a ton of control over people. Now it's pretty much like that. I've dealt with both sides and personally much more prefer the States in most regards. It's nice that you had such good experience briefly

But that story with the Australian guys.... Oh man haha what a coincidence and it got to be a very great experience, nice that you had that back then, today is a bit different unfortunately. That's why I say you probably didn't make the wrong "decision", but it's still good for a visit for sure. Awesome story anyway.

 

[kiwifi]

Prices here though are considerable limiting factor, as here in Australia the cost of electronics is quite literally unreasonable for both new and second hand, about 50-100% more compared to the US... Cause of that I might need to aim for X3600 or X3700 max second hand, and none available atm

Any specific Marantz line or models?

Same in New Zealand. I just ordered a Denon AVC-X3800H from Amazon Germany. Including shipping and GST, it was still cheaper than buying locally!

 

[schotky]

That SMSL DAC has sound color filters one of which could be on by default which could explain the difference you are hearing. All DACs also have high frequency roll off filters sometimes user switchable between various linear phase to minimum phase types. The differences between these are mostly inaudible to people over a certain age but maybe not the case with you.

Yeah I played with those a lot when I first got it, they are pretty much as you said, incredibly hard to discern, I could probably tell a minute difference between maybe two or three, but you had to focus a lot to hear that, and that's it. So using them is almost irrelevant if they are that hard to tell apart.

But they are not what it changes or improves the sound notably. I turned everything "extra" off or put it on default setting. Last night after all this conversation and feedback here I was thinking let's double check if I'm tripping or something, and was A / B ing for almost 2h with a variety of songs, bands and genres. Any "extra" or "on top of" setting bypassed or set to default if off isn't an option.

With the schematic I found of the VSX 1021, all analog inputs skip the DAC completely. So while testing, I could tell that there is 101% difference to my ears. Not only in the top end, but the midrange as well and everything overall, but it's most noticeable in midrange and the high end. With the external DAC everything is much smoother, polished and more "spacious" and natural. With the internal DAC things sound more digitized and less refined.

Think of it like a brand new sheet of paper, and another that was crumpled and then straightened. It is straightened now and usable, but there are visible marks of it being crumpled. That would be the closest visual description of the difference I can hear.

So, in technical sense DACs may sound all the same, and I'm not disputing that, but also at the same time, there IS something that is improving the sound in the external DAC quite a bit, or something that is messing up the sound in the AVR. And I'd say it's more of the latter, you can't really perfectly straighten crumpled paper.

 

[schotky]

Same in New Zealand. I just ordered a Denon AVC-X3800H from Amazon Germany. Including shipping and GST, it was still cheaper than buying locally!

Haha yeah, NZ is probably even worse on that regard, that's what I mostly do as well. Dollar conversion fee, international shipping fee, import taxes and still way cheaper than bought locally... The irony.. XD

How much was the final price of the X3800H if I may ask?

 

[OCA]

Yeah I played with those a lot when I first got it, they are pretty much as you said, incredibly hard to discern, I could probably tell a minute difference between maybe two or three, but you had to focus a lot to hear that, and that's it. So using them is almost irrelevant if they are that hard to tell apart.

But they are not what it changes or improves the sound notably. I turned everything "extra" off or put it on default setting. Last night after all this conversation and feedback here I was thinking let's double check if I'm tripping or something, and was A / B ing for almost 2h with a variety of songs, bands and genres. Any "extra" or "on top of" setting bypassed or set to default if off isn't an option.

With the schematic I found of the VSX 1021, all analog inputs skip the DAC completely. So while testing, I could tell that there is 101% difference to my ears. Not only in the top end, but the midrange as well and everything overall, but it's most noticeable in midrange and the high end. With the external DAC everything is much smoother, polished and more "spacious" and natural. With the internal DAC things sound more digitized and less refined.

Think of it like a brand new sheet of paper, and another that was crumpled and then straightened. It is straightened now and usable, but there are visible marks of it being crumpled. That would be the closest visual description of the difference I can hear.

So, in technical sense DACs may sound all the same, and I'm not disputing that, but also at the same time, there IS something that is improving the sound in the external DAC quite a bit, or something that is messing up the sound in the AVR. And I'd say it's more of the latter, you can't really perfectly straighten crumpled paper.

You don't have to agree with that. The Pioneer might introduce added jitter, as I doubt they used high-precision clocks in its DAC. The typical narrative on ASR is that all steaks should taste the same as long as lab tests confirm they're 100% meat and if they don't, it's just your brain playing tricks on you

 

[schotky]

You don't have to agree with that. The Pioneer might introduce added jitter, as I doubt they used high-precision clocks in its DAC. The typical narrative on ASR is that all steaks should taste the same as long as lab tests confirm they're 100% meat and if they don't, it's just your brain playing tricks on you

Haha yeah I've noticed, it's like discerning organic from non organic steak.

So high precision clock or something else, there is something as a whole circuit DAC, not just the chip itself. I mean, if all DACs are the same, why are they even being tested at all and ranked, it's again the same thing, is it organic steak or not.

On that note, I've asked some of my friends just for reference, none of them could tell there's a difference. But also none of them are into these kind of stuff. I even played them 128kbs mp3 and FLAC they also couldn't tell the difference. I also gifted a friend some ultra cheap Sherwood floorstanding speakers that I didn't use that barely played anything below 80-100Hz, his feedback was he hasn't heard speakers producing more bass in his life and that they are amazing.... My guess is some people just can't tell such differences and thus don't care, and some maybe don't know there is a difference until they hear different or better, testing and technical sense aside but as you said, might be clock, jitter whatever it is.. So.. I don't freakin' know

 

[schotky]

Also wanted to say thanks and appreciate all who contributed, provided some useful links and gave a solid and specific direction in which to head regarding choosing an AVR, it's a good start I'm considering some other options as well as maybe getting an external DAC with HDMI input, as AVRs seem to have capable amplifiers inside for sensitive enough speakers

 

[peng]

Hey thanks for looking that up, appreciate it. Yeah I know what you mean with gold plated stuff, $3000 power cables etc, that is just ridiculous and obvious snake oil.

I found the service manual, from the block diagram all analog inputs do bypass the DAC and anything digital. Analogs only go through a digital input selector and volume. The DAC seems to be positioned in a different section altogether the way it's shown, probably a different pcb.

Only the digital inputs go through the DAC according to the service manual. That's the HDMI to which I hear sound degradation. The schematic also shows the DAC is actually AK4588 in the VSX 1021... similar to the lower spec'd one you mentioned for Marantz, Denon and Onkyo.

That is interesting, as different models often have different features and that's why I made it clear that I wasn't sure about the 1021.
The SM that I glanced were the 1020, 1025, and the 1018 models, in those cased, it would seem that the analog input signal flows through the ADC and then a mediocre DAC, one that is not as good as the Wolfson one that is used for the digital signal.

Just one cautionary note, the large level block diagrams found in many service manuals do not show all the details or even all the parts, so one has to drill down to the lower level, sometime to the schematics (such as in the case of some Marantz AVRs), below is what I found in the lower level block diagrams, but the higher level one only show the volume IC, but skipped the ADC altogether:

High level on, ADC/DSP/DAC not shown, so it would give the impression that analog input path "bypasses.."

Here's the lower level details shown in a later page:

This one clearly show the analog path does not "bypass..".

Another cautionary note is of course, there is the possibility that, like in the case of others such as Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, and some higher Anthem models, bypass is possible when you use direct, pure direct kind of modes, but the Pioneer SMs of the 1021, 1025 that are available, do not show that kind of details, then you can be 100% sure.

Hopefully your 1021 SM does show all the details.

 

[peng]

Only the digital inputs go through the DAC according to the service manual. That's the HDMI to which I hear sound degradation. The schematic also shows the DAC is actually AK4588 in the VSX 1021... similar to the lower spec'd one you mentioned for Marantz, Denon and Onkyo.

I would be curious to see the diagram, not doubting you but sometimes the details get lost in those not really well and clear manuals. For example, in the SMs that I do have, the 1020, 1025, 1018 mentioned, the DAC WM8728 is for the digital path, whereas for the analog, for some strange reason they use the AK4588 (for the 1020/1025), and in the case of the 1020/1025, the AK4114. Again, to me, and likely to many others, this is mostly academic, DACs at those level, while not great on specs, usually are not the bottleneck for most people with normal or less than normal hearing. But people hear, or think what they hear, so I stopped debating on claimed audibility a while back.

 

[Svend P]

Try turning up the volume when using only the Pioneers DAC. That could explain the difference.

 

[kiwifi]

How much was the final price of the X3800H if I may ask?

I bought B-Stock from Amazon returns. It was going to be 1800NZD delivered, but I paid the extra 10 Euro for priority shipping. The shipping was "late" according to Amazon, so they refunded the full shipping cost! Final delivered cost was 1532NZD.

 

[Chrispy]

Right right, well yeah that was quite a long time ago, but really I don't think you've made the wrong decision of not moving, Aus is sort of like a more basic or "lite" version of the US, with less of everything including the goods and bads, mostly less of the goods really, and then add a ton of control over people. Now it's pretty much like that. I've dealt with both sides and personally much more prefer the States in most regards. It's nice that you had such good experience briefly

But that story with the Australian guys.... Oh man haha what a coincidence and it got to be a very great experience, nice that you had that back then, today is a bit different unfortunately. That's why I say you probably didn't make the wrong "decision", but it's still good for a visit for sure. Awesome story anyway.

Seems to me I wasn't financially set enough to qualify for an actual move/immigration at the time and didn't think much about it after I checked that out.

 

[schotky]

I would be curious to see the diagram, not doubting you but sometimes the details get lost in those not really well and clear manuals. For example, in the SMs that I do have, the 1020, 1025, 1018 mentioned, the DAC WM8728 is for the digital path, whereas for the analog, for some strange reason they use the AK4588 (for the 1020/1025), and in the case of the 1020/1025, the AK4114. Again, to me, and likely to many others, this is mostly academic, DACs at those level, while not great on specs, usually are not the bottleneck for most people with normal or less than normal hearing. But people hear, or think what they hear, so I stopped debating on claimed audibility a while back.

Yeah I got you of course, I'll attach the file tomorrow it's on my work pc. Components can vary greatly between similar devices, or sometimes they'll be completely the same just under different model like a reissue or "updated" version..



It's hard to debate hearing really, it's like debating taste more or less or even visuals. I have friends that are also blind to some colors, so if asked how many colors are in the rainbow, they may say 4 or 5, and someone else will say there are actually 7. So they'll be wrong to him, and he'll be wrong to them. While there's also science/nature/technology involved here too, which is different to personal perception and doesn't work on perception, but also science doesn't always apply to everything the same way. There's also a difference that can be perceived to whatever it might be attributed to... So I just leave things as they are and do what works for me, and leave it to others to do what works for them, basically that's the "agreement "

 

[schotky]

Try turning up the volume when using only the Pioneers DAC. That could explain the difference.

I've tried all the basic things and possible combinations I could think of. Cranking the volume with its internal DAC on high volumes makes it hard to listen for me, in the treble region especially, with the external is just a pure enjoyment and everything sounds smooth and "natural"

No matter how weird or "wrong" or technically incorrect and not making sense this may sound but that's what I hear

 

[schotky]

I bought B-Stock from Amazon returns. It was going to be 1800NZD delivered, but I paid the extra 10 Euro for priority shipping. The shipping was "late" according to Amazon, so they refunded the full shipping cost! Final delivered cost was 1532NZD.

Damn that's a great deal, and shipping turning out that way just added to the greatness

 

[schotky]

Seems to me I wasn't financially set enough to qualify for an actual move/immigration at the time and didn't think much about it after I checked that out.

After about 9y here I'm actually considering of moving to the States to be honest if it happens to be

 

[Svend P]

You could buy a Umik-1 and measure the difference. If you get a receiver with Dirac you are going to need one anyway