AVR for music suggestions

[schotky]

There is nothing wrong with your Pioneer, except you may have an eq enabled or something like that. A newer receiver will not sound better, with the caveat that modern room correction might give a better performance. I am not familiar with Pioneers MCACC.

All DAC's and amplifiers sound the same. Room correction and speakers makes a huge difference to the sound.

No yeah I don't think anything is wrong with the Pioneer, just its digital section which is believe is the DAC isn't that great, and in my experience not all really sound the same. As I mentioned, a good external DAC makes pretty obvious sound difference to my ears on this AVR. That's what I'm bypassing and there is audible difference to me... So I don't know. EQ and stuff is all off, running in Pure Direct mode in each scenario

Room correction made some difference in my room, but that doesn't affect what I'm referring to. The MCACC isn't bad isn't that great either, I used it and additionally fine tweaked the standing waves, it took me a while to get the best out of it

For speakers I can't complain, I have Luxman Ocean Four and I'm very very pleased with them. 25-22kHz with 25Hz at f6 and 31Hz at f3. 92dB sensitivity, 90W continuous power. They weigh like around 50kg each or ~100lbs. Compared them to a bunch of other speakers and found them to be the sonically almost the same as the Sonus Faber Olympica Nova III, at the very least 95% there to my ears but are 1/3 the price. The Fabers had slightly more detailed and crisper top end

 

[Svend P]

and in my experience not all really sound the same

They really do. Just read a few pages here

How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[schotky]

They really do. Just read a few pages here

How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Thanks for pointing this out, discussions like this are interesting. I haven't seen this exact post before, though I'm aware of the sense in what's going on with 0 and 1 and the whole thing does make technical sense that DACs just cannot sound different

But I don't know to what else to attribute the obvious to me sound difference that I hear while using same source and same analog amplifier in the AVR, on same speakers... There must be something but I don't know what else it could be. I'm totally open to anything figure this out

 

[Svend P]

But I don't know to what else to attribute the obvious to me sound difference that I hear while using same source and same analog amplifier in the AVR, on same speakers... There must be something but I don't know what else it could be. I'm totally open to anything figure this out

Usually it is difference in level. If you can measure the output with a multimeter, you would know for sure.

 

[peng]

Thanks for pointing this out, discussions like this are interesting. I haven't seen this exact post before, though I'm aware of the sense in what's going on with 0 and 1 and the whole thing does make technical sense that DACs just cannot sound different

I think for most people, the question is, if they have specs and measurements that show any distortions and noise are well below human's threshold of audibility, then how can they sound different? So, as you seem to be aware that at least it makes technical sense, that under the stated conditions they cannot sound different. Regardless, people (including me) are naturally drawn to those that has better specs on paper and performed better in bench test measurements. Same for gold plated connectors, expensive interconnects, in extreme case example, even power cords lol..

But I don't know to what else to attribute the obvious to me sound difference that I hear while using same source and same analog amplifier in the AVR, on same speakers... There must be something but I don't know what else it could be. I'm totally open to anything figure this out

I was scanning some Pioneer AVR service manuals, and I am not sure the VSX-1021 let you bypass the ADC/DAC, because the 1019/20 models that do have service manuals available show that the analog input signals do go through the ADC and DAC, getting double conversions, the DAC if the Wolfson WM8728 that is a vey good one that has better specs than the Denon/Marantz/Onkyo bunch that had the AK4458 IC replaced by a lower spec'ed on by TI because of factory fire/shortage. The ADC is not that good and will be bottleneck. So if the 1021 does not have the "bypass", the using external DAC via the analog inputs will not make a difference, except expectation bias, the effects of which is well known, so anything is possible. You can try to search for the 1021's service manual if you are interested, to confirm whether "bypass" is possible.

 

[Svend P]

The ADC is not that good and will be bottleneck.

But people can't even hear if it goes through 8 times DA/AD conversion, so I wouldn't worry about that.

8th generation ADC/DAC loop vs the original.....can you hear it?

Download this zip file. It will unzip into a folder with three 30 second snippets of a Fiona Apple song. Two are the original digital file. One is an 8th generation loop thru DAC/ADC. Pick the odd file out on the poll...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[peng]

But people can't even hear if it goes through 8 times DA/AD conversion, so I wouldn't worry about that.

8th generation ADC/DAC loop vs the original.....can you hear it?

Download this zip file. It will unzip into a folder with three 30 second snippets of a Fiona Apple song. Two are the original digital file. One is an 8th generation loop thru DAC/ADC. Pick the odd file out on the poll...

www.audiosciencereview.com

You may be right, but that wasn't my point. The OP seems to think using an external DAC would bypass the internal one, so he was then getting higher SINAD, my point is simply that he should check and confirm whether he was in fact bypassing the internal DAC, because obviously if not, the external DAC's SINAD would not stand as it would be limited by ICs that would not be bypassed, including and not limited to the internal DAC IC. As to whether the internal ADC, DAC, and/or the other ICs such as opamps, volume IC's lower SINAD vs the external DAC IC's or not, I didn't, and wouldn't comment, other than everything could be affected by bias such as expectation, Placebo effects etc., when listening tests are done sighted and "uncontrolled".

 

[Azrael]

Prices here though are considerable limiting factor, as here in Australia the cost of electronics is quite literally unreasonable for both new and second hand, about 50-100% more compared to the US...

These differences will probably equalise in the future.

 

[schotky]

I think for most people, the question is, if they have specs and measurements that show any distortions and noise are well below human's threshold of audibility, then how can they sound different? So, as you seem to be aware that at least it makes technical sense, that under the stated conditions they cannot sound different. Regardless, people (including me) are naturally drawn to those that has better specs on paper and performed better in bench test measurements. Same for gold plated connectors, expensive interconnects, in extreme case example, even power cords lol..

I was scanning some Pioneer AVR service manuals, and I am not sure the VSX-1021 let you bypass the ADC/DAC, because the 1019/20 models that do have service manuals available show that the analog input signals do go through the ADC and DAC, getting double conversions, the DAC if the Wolfson WM8728 that is a vey good one that has better specs than the Denon/Marantz/Onkyo bunch that had the AK4458 IC replaced by a lower spec'ed on by TI because of factory fire/shortage. The ADC is not that good and will be bottleneck. So if the 1021 does not have the "bypass", the using external DAC via the analog inputs will not make a difference, except expectation bias, the effects of which is well known, so anything is possible. You can try to search for the 1021's service manual if you are interested, to confirm whether "bypass" is possible.

Hey thanks for looking that up, appreciate it. Yeah I know what you mean with gold plated stuff, $3000 power cables etc, that is just ridiculous and obvious snake oil.

I found the service manual, from the block diagram all analog inputs do bypass the DAC and anything digital. Analogs only go through a digital input selector and volume. The DAC seems to be positioned in a different section altogether the way it's shown, probably a different pcb.

Only the digital inputs go through the DAC according to the service manual. That's the HDMI to which I hear sound degradation. The schematic also shows the DAC is actually AK4588 in the VSX 1021... similar to the lower spec'd one you mentioned for Marantz, Denon and Onkyo.

 

[schotky]

BTW, I found an Anthem MRX720 for $150 with no sound output... Not sure if it's worth taking it and troubleshoot to repair

 

[Chrispy]

BTW, I found an Anthem MRX720 for $150 with no sound output... Not sure if it's worth taking it and troubleshoot to repair

FWIW unless you have a tech capable of good analysis and if any board is still available from Anthem (or the ability of the tech to repair the board), wouldn't have high expectations and would move on to functioning gear.

 

[schotky]

FWIW unless you have a tech capable of good analysis and if any board is still available from Anthem (or the ability of the tech to repair the board), wouldn't have high expectations and would move on to functioning gear.

Right, cause I'd assume a working one second hand here would be at least $1.5-2k, and if repair isn't possible or too expensive I can resell it for parts probably

 

[Chrispy]

Right, cause I'd assume a working one second hand here would be at least $1.5-2k, and if repair isn't possible or too expensive I can resell it for parts probably

Can't even imagine trying to sell defective gear as parts, can't imagine you'd get much in any case. I wouldn't buy a broken avr myself from any brand, let alone a smallish one like Anthem.

 

[schotky]

Can't even imagine trying to sell defective gear as parts, can't imagine you'd get much in any case. I wouldn't buy a broken avr myself from any brand, let alone a smallish one like Anthem.

I'm on board with you, what I've noticed though in this country common sense isn't really a thing which translates into these stuff too, I have bought things for not much with issues before and the fixes most of the time take 10-30 mins with no or minimum parts involved

If I show you some of the ads on local marketplace you'll laugh your ass off. People selling a TV for $200 with a description "the TV works perfectly it just has a cracked screen".... Just wth

This Anthem not sure what it could be, but it does seem to likely won't be as easy or cheap to repair. The guy is actually is asking $400 for it, I offered $150 and took him a day to think about it and respond

 

[Chrispy]

I'm on board with you, what I've noticed though in this country common sense isn't really a thing which translates into these stuff too, I have bought things for not much with issues before and the fixes most of the time take 10-30 mins with no or minimum parts involved

If I show you some of the ads on local marketplace you'll laugh your ass off. People selling a TV for $200 with a description "the TV works perfectly it just has a cracked screen".... Just wth

This Anthem not sure what it could be, but it does seem to likely won't be as easy or cheap to repair

I just don't look at used consumer electronics much myself, rather buy new with a warranty for initial period. I have bought some used gear if price and functionality/care was right, tho (last used avr was from a respected fellow forum member....it still is working like a champ and was $200 for a much better avr than the Anthem mentioned)

 

[schotky]

I just don't look at used consumer electronics much myself, rather buy new with a warranty for initial period. I have bought some used gear if price and functionality/care was right, tho (last used avr was from a respected fellow forum member....it still is working like a champ and was $200 for a much better avr than the Anthem mentioned)

In the US I'd probably do the same, what forces you to look into these things is just the prices here, I see the Pioneer 1021 in the US was around $600 or so, here was almost $2000 when it came out.

What is better than this Anthem to you? I have no experience with them at all

 

[Chrispy]

In the US I'd probably do the same, what forces you to look into these things is just the prices here, I see the Pioneer 1021 in the US was around $600 or so, here was almost $2000 when it came out.

What is better than this Anthem to you? I have no experience with them at all

I'd stick to Denon/Marantz or Yamaha largely. Anthem is a boutique brand with similar feature set but a higher price due low numbers. I had a Pioneer 919 a few years back that fried, and my brother's 1021 fried, too....wouldn't particularly go that way

 

[Chrispy]

@schotky where are you particularly?

 

[schotky]

@schotky where are you particularly?

Sydney

 

[Chrispy]

Sydney

Been there once, for a week over 30 years ago! Used to do business with a coupla Australian concert promoters for logistics.