AVC-X3800H vs AVC-X4700H

[lashto]

...
I am tempted to go for the 4700 but what's holding me back is the Dirac live option that the 3800 offers.

A lot of people mention "it has Dirac" as a plus for 3800. As far as I can see, the 3800 does not offer any 'Diracs' whatsoever. They do not even have any.

Judging by the promised timeline (2023-24), the D&M's development did not even start (or it's in super-early stages). A lot might go wrong as it already did for ~all companies that tried Dirac: most had huge delays, some only offer minimal features, some failed completely. And the most advanced version, the so-called "dirac spatial" is not even finished by Dirac themselves.

All we have right now is a textbook example of vaporware.
Even if delivered, it'll probably be a not-so-good first version in this D&M generation.
And assuming (very generously) that all the above will miraculously work, Dirac will still cost >$500 extra (don't forget that you must buy an extra Dirac calibrated mic).

So, no 'real Diracs' are offered, it's only a promise that you might be able to buy some next year .. or the year after ... or maybe not.

If you plan to keep that AVR for 5+ years, the 3800 may make some sense (with the many caveats/risks above).
The 'upgraded' 4700 does not make much sense IMO. Unless budget is by far your no1 prio.
I would buy an 'original' 4700 with AKM chips.

 

[lashto]

By the way, here's how you can identify an 'original' Denon/Marantz with AKM chips (and proven/good measurements).

The S/N has the format LLLL (4 letters) MM (month) YY (year) DDDDD (5 digits).
The AKM 'originals' were built before May 2021 (MMYY below 0521) and have a DDDDD below 70000 (seems to start with a "0" in most cases).

P.S.
the above is only an educated guess.
Officially, D&M only communicated the DDDDD 'trick' as a way to identify devices with new HDMI boards.
Also officially, D&M won't even admit that they changed the DACs (cough: strongly downgraded) but most probably it was done at the exact same time.

/edited
original post had the wrong date/year (0520 instead of 0521)

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

By the way, here's how you can identify an 'original' Denon/Marantz with AKM chips (and proven/good measurements).

The S/N has the format LLLL (4 letters) MM (month) YY (year) DDDDD (5 digits).
The originals were built before May 2020 (MMYY below 0520) and have a DDDDD below 70000 (seems to start with a "0" in most cases).

P.S.
the above is only an educated guess.
Officially, D&M only communicated that S/N 'trick' as a way to identify devices with new HDMI boards.
Also officially, D&M won't even admit that they changed the DACs (cough: strongly downgraded) but most probably it was done at the exact same time.

Mine has 0920, but the last 5 digit is in lower 6000. I might buy one of those tools that can go inside and take a look.

 

[lashto]

Mine has 0920, but the last 5 digit is in lower 6000. I might buy one of those tools that can go inside and take a look.

great...
I did read a lot of forums/etc, your S/N is the first which might be an exception to the 0520 7xxxx 'rule'. Like I said, "educated guess". And not exactly phd-level educated.

The crawling microscope method is still the only way to be sure

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

great...
I did read a lot of forums/etc, your S/N is the first which might be an exception to the 0520 7xxxx 'rule'. Like I said, "educated guess". And not exactly phd-level educated.

The crawling microscope method is still the only way to be sure

Would this work or too low of a resolution?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0B68LDLVT/ref=dp_ob_neva_mobile?th=1&psc=1

 

[lashto]

Would this work or too low of a resolution?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0B68LDLVT/ref=dp_ob_neva_mobile?th=1&psc=1

no idea, I did not do the Denon DAC crawl. In theory, "1080P HD" should be more than enough resolution. Plus, the price is 'right' and you can always return to amazon.
Have fun and send us pics

 

[Brambo67]

I own the x4700 with PCM DAC's. It sounds great, no issues with HDMI and, at the levels I play it, no issues with distortion nor noise. But of course there always will be people wanting to buy something that is 'class leading' in any measurement even if your ears never will be able to hear the difference. Which doesn't mean I belief it's the right way forward for Sound United by any means but I do belief the 4700 is right now the 'bargain of the month' even with the PCM DAC's.

I bought it for less than € 1400 one year ago in NL, added a Marantz MM7025 amp to be able to play a 7.1.4 setup and it rocks! Really you can't hear any difference when playing all 11 channels... For stereo I added a Topping DAC (€ 50,00....) and stream Apple Music through it via the analog CD-in. Great but to be honest I don'hear any difference when playing the same music via Airplay 2. So... if you still can get the 4700 ánd are not a 'SINAD-fetishist' I only can advice; buy it!

 

[lashto]

Mine has 0920, but the last 5 digit is in lower 6000. I might buy one of those tools that can go inside and take a look.

oh shoot my mistake. The HDMI/DAC change was in May2021, not 2020 (and officially announced 4 months later in Aug 2021).
Will update the post above too! Don't listen/trust people on forums

Btw, is your DDDDD a 06xxx number or 6xxxx ?! All 'originals' I saw were made before 0521 and had a DDDDD like 0xxxxx

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

oh shoot my mistake. It is May2021, not 2020. Will update the post above too!
Don't listen/trust people on forums

Btw, is your DDDDD a 06xxx number or 6xxxx ?! All 'originals' I saw were before 0521 and DDDDD 0xxxxx

06xxx

 

[lashto]

06xxx

good, my 'algorithm' is still ok(ish)

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

good, my 'algorithm' is still ok(ish)

I already ordered the endoscope! That advertising picture which suspiciously looks like an AVR was very convincing

 

[lashto]

I own the x4700 with PCM DAC's. It sounds great, no issues with HDMI and, at the levels I play it, no issues with distortion nor noise. But of course there always will be people wanting to buy something that is 'class leading' in any measurement even if your ears never will be able to hear the difference. Which doesn't mean I belief it's the right way forward for Sound United by any means but I do belief the 4700 is right now the 'bargain of the month' even with the PCM DAC's.

I bought it for less than € 1400 one year ago in NL, added a Marantz MM7025 amp to be able to play a 7.1.4 setup and it rocks! Really you can't hear any difference when playing all 11 channels... For stereo I added a Topping DAC (€ 50,00....) and stream Apple Music through it via the analog CD-in. Great but to be honest I don'hear any difference when playing the same music via Airplay 2. So... if you still can get the 4700 ánd are not a 'SINAD-fetishist' I only can advice; buy it!

there are many posts like yours in the x3800 review thread. And many answers saying that you are missing the point (or more precisely, some of the points)

It is not about audibility! (and btw, the SINAD number is also not about audibility, those two are almost unrelated).

• SINAD is a measure of engineering competence and quality (or call it "engineering bragging rights" if you wish). Many/most on ASR care foremost about that and apparently D&M doesn't. Problem!
• Many also care about value for money. And D&M is selling cheaper/worse parts for more money. Problem!
• Many also care about transparency. And D&M did all changes in the sneakiest possible mańner (even today there is no official info about those DAC/ADC changes). Problem!

So, it's not about audibility but about engineering quality, prices and transparency. About principles if you wish.

If you truly care about those things, I guess you won't touch any D&M device (at east for a while). IMO, the transparency issues are the worst they did (no excuses there!). But let's be fair, many will sacrifice some principles for a good deal and transparency is probably the first to be 'forgotten'.

If you don't care much about quality, yes 4700 is a good (price) deal.
The previous series (4600 & co) is an even better deal: cheaper and does not sacrifice quality. But only HDMI 2.0.
The 'original' 4700 is like a best of both worlds deal.

Few months ago someone already prophesized something like "the hunt for AKM devices has begun!".
I guess those might become some sort of cult devices (at least for a while). Particularly the pre-'upgrade' gems Denon 8500 and Marantz 8015

 

[Chromatischism]

SINAD problems can be audible depending on their severity and where they fall in the spectrum.

That said, I am not convinced that 85 SINAD AVRs will sound any different than 105's unless you have a very very quiet room and play very very high dynamic range content, especially with high sensitivity speakers, and listen pretty intently.

With that said, would I prefer better? Sure. I want the peace of mind to ensure I never run into audible distortions. But I don't think that will happen in a domestic situation with an 85 SINAD AVR running average sensitivity speakers.

 

[Brambo67]

there are many posts like yours in the x3800 review thread. And many answers saying that you are missing the point (or more precisely, some of the points)

So, it's not about audibility but about engineering quality, prices and transparency. About principles if you wish.

If you truly care about those things, I guess you won't touch any D&M device (at east for a while). IMO, the transparency issues are the worst they did (no excuses there!). But let's be fair, many will sacrifice some principles for a good deal and transparency is probably the first to be 'forgotten'.

If you don't care much about quality, yes 4700 is a good (price) deal.

I already mentioned I don't appreciate Sound United dealing with the AKM-shortage and choosing lower spec DAC. I also don't like prices increasing either. Facts are however, at least from a 'normal usage'-perspective, this AVR can do everything I need it to do. So why stay away when the alternatives are performing at best equal but mostly worse ánd are increasing in price as well. Everything else in the box is engineered quite well; unscrew it, take a look inside and compare to alternatives. But I guess saying this doesn't make sense on this forum, which I can understand as quite literally the most important moderator is literally benchmarking on SINAD scores.

I will definitely keep enjoying my HT-setup with the X4700 as the centrepiece. Anyone who really wants to dump the 3800 they just bought, or is assuming the 3700PCM and 4700PCM also must be underwhelming now and will do the same, be my guest. Good luck in finding a 3700AKM or 3600 for which you pay too much and don't have the benefit of warranty.

 

[lashto]

I already mentioned I don't appreciate Sound United dealing with the AKM-shortage and choosing lower spec DAC. I also don't like prices increasing either. Facts are however, at least from a 'normal usage'-perspective, this AVR can do everything I need it to do. So why stay away when the alternatives are performing at best equal but mostly worse ánd are increasing in price as well. Everything else in the box is engineered quite well; unscrew it, take a look inside and compare to alternatives. But I guess saying this doesn't make sense on this forum, which I can understand as quite literally the most important moderator is literally benchmarking on SINAD scores.

I will definitely keep enjoying my HT-setup with the X4700 as the centrepiece. Anyone who really wants to dump the 3800 they just bought, or is assuming the 3700PCM and 4700PCM also must be underwhelming now and will do the same, be my guest. Good luck in finding a 3700AKM or 3600 for which you pay too much and don't have the benefit of warranty.

There are of course many levels for "engineering quality" and what is good enough is a personal decision. After all, you're the one paying for it.

I saw no clear analysis/teardown of the new DAC boards but guess we can safely say that they are not broken. All the screws are properly done and it does D/A. Is that enough "engineering quality" for you? Could be for many...

Here's a way to use the measured SINAD to judge the "engineering quality" of this AVR.
Denon managed to get ~87 SINAD from a DAC chip specified at 93 SINAD. I would call that a barely acceptable minimum. Any engineer should be able to do that, it's almost at the level of "any monkey can do it".
A good/competent implementation should stay within 1-2dB of the spec. Could actually be the case here, the measured ~6dB loss might come from somewhere else (e.g. the DSP circuit). But that just indicates some other basic/cheap circuit in the AVR.
An excellent/amazing implementation will measure above the 93dB spec. That sounds a bit strange but it is actually possible and there are well documented cases of such pleasant 'surprises'.

For me this looks like a "below good" AVR. That is only in terms of "engineering quality". Even that is quite hard to judge although we have measurements, teardowns and so on.
About audibility there is nothing anyone can say. AFAIK, nobody tested that and nobody has any data worth discussing.

 

[Brambo67]

A good/competent implementation should stay within 1-2dB of the spec. Could actually be the case here, the measured ~6dB loss might come from somewhere else (e.g. the DSP circuit). But that just indicates another basic/cheap circuit somewhere else in the AVR.
An excellent/amazing implementation will measure above the 93dB spec. That sounds a bit strange but it is actually possible and there are well documented cases of such pleasant 'surprises'.

For me this looks like a "below good" AVR. That is only in terms of "engineering quality". Even that is quite hard to judge although we have measurements, teardowns and so on.
About audibility there is nothing anyone can say. AFAIK, nobody tested that and nobody has any data worth discussing.

I agree with you. Still, also the implementation of AKM-chips, didn’t bring better delta between DAC possible performance and real performance with DENON. These ‘old’ Denons are considered ‘good’ or even great… I guess there’s a lot to say on marketing by Sound United but perhaps the same applies to marketing by DAC suppliers. Which makes sense because how else to distinguish from the competition. And of course a lot of people really belief they can hear the difference once the soundwaves leave the speaker. And I’m also one of the guys rather having sky-high SINAD…. But in the meantime I’m enjoying my special beer from Belgium, listening via AirPlay 2-sent music to my Wharfedale EVO 4.4’s. The data is processed by an inferior DAC with low SINAD and not top of class amplified either by Denon’s pre-amp and Marantz’ MM7025 with only THD of 0,05 (imagine…) and S/N of 105 db. Still; the beer tastes great and the music by Racoon, a Dutch band, sounds great. I am happy with beer, music, speakers and AVR.

 

[lashto]

I agree with you. Still, also the implementation of AKM-chips, didn’t bring better delta between DAC possible performance and real performance with DENON. These ‘old’ Denons are considered ‘good’ or even great… I guess there’s a lot to say on marketing by Sound United but perhaps the same applies to marketing by DAC suppliers. Which makes sense because how else to distinguish from the competition. And of course a lot of people really belief they can hear the difference once the soundwaves leave the speaker. And I’m also one of the guys rather having sky-high SINAD…. But in the meantime I’m enjoying my special beer from Belgium, listening via AirPlay 2-sent music to my Wharfedale EVO 4.4’s. The data is processed by an inferior DAC with low SINAD and not top of class amplified either by Denon’s pre-amp and Marantz’ MM7025 with only THD of 0,05 (imagine…) and S/N of 105 db. Still; the beer tastes great and the music by Racoon, a Dutch band, sounds great. I am happy with beer, music, speakers and AVR.

The old AKM models are limited by the switch/volume chips. Do not remember the exact models/numbers of those chips but they have a specsheet limit of ~100-105dB. Which is where the AVRs measured ~100dB SINAD.

 

[PNWShawn]

I realize I’m late to join this discussion, but I was weighing the same 4700 vs 3800 question. I wanted to upgrade my HT to take advantage of new HDMI features and to add Atmos channels. I bought a new Pioneer Elite LX305 and thought it must have been damaged in shipping because it would frequently switch inputs on its own, and even freeze up or power down. And don’t get me started on remote interoperability! So I sent it back to Crutchfield and the replacement they sent is even more buggy! The sound is amazing both with Dirac Live or even just using Pioneer’s MCACC, and the upscaled 4K picture quality is amazing on my OLED TV. That said, I ABSOLUTELY HATE IT! The main source of problems seem to be HDMI 2.1 compatibility issues related to CEC. My sources are a 4K Dolby Vision-capable Roku Ultra and a newer, 1080p cable STB. Also a Blu-Ray I never use. Some forum posters suggest turning off CEC or even just plugging everything in to my TV, but then I lose the HDCP 2.3 audio sync function and I can never seem to adjust the lip sync manually. It’s like watching an old Godzilla movie but in 4K HDR10+. It seems to me that chip supply line shortages have seriously hurt the AV market and they are struggling to implement new technology. I am considering just reconnecting my 16-year-old, 35 lb, 130 watt, THX-certified 7.2 Pioneer Elite, even though it has legacy (read: useless) HDMI ports and no Atmos or Auro-3D capability. But I digress. I want to find a good AVR for under $2k USD, and given my bad experience with the new Pioneer, I’m hesitant to buy an Onkyo or Integra for fear of the same issues. Several YouTube reviewers such as Andrew Robinson highly recommend the Onkyo RZ50, while audio enthusiasts in the online forums say the RZ50 is junk. If Onkyo/Pioneer is out, it looks like my best choice in my price range is Denon/Marantz. It’s December 2022 and Denon has just released a batch of AVR-X4700H that do not appear to be refurbs for $1,499 USD - $200 less than the new X3800H and $1k less than the X4800H. Some posters say the main difference is the modest boost in power and the theoretical future availability Dirac. Some also mention the 4700 has only two 8K HDMI inputs, but a much better remote, while the 3800 has 4 sub pre-outs. I don’t think anyone mentioned that the 4700 has a much more substantial chassis and weighs 2.6 lbs (about 1.2 kg) more than the 3800, or the rating of .05 THD at 8 ohms vs the 3800’s .08 THD. But reading here that Denon is now putting inferior DACs in the newer 4700s I’m more confused than ever. Is there some other direction I should be looking? Are people experiencing input switching and remote interoperability issues with Denon/Marantz products?

 

[dlaloum]

I have been reading similar issues in the Denon threads - It seems we are experiencing the teething problems of a new generation of HDMI... and the issues may well be at the source end rather than the AVR. (some people have noted all the issues dissapearing after disconnecting one source component... )

 

[404_500]

I own the x4700 with PCM DAC's. It sounds great, no issues with HDMI and, at the levels I play it, no issues with distortion nor noise. But of course there always will be people wanting to buy something that is 'class leading' in any measurement even if your ears never will be able to hear the difference. Which doesn't mean I belief it's the right way forward for Sound United by any means but I do belief the 4700 is right now the 'bargain


I bought it for less than € 1400 one year ago in NL, added a Marantz MM7025 amp to be able to play a 7.1.4 setup and it rocks! Really you can't hear any difference when playing all 11 channels... For stereo I added a Topping DAC (€ 50,00....) and stream Apple Music through it via the analog CD-in. Great but to be honest I don'hear any difference when playing the same music via Airplay 2. So... if you still can get the 4700 ánd are not a 'SINAD-fetishist' I only can advice;



I own the x4700 with PCM DAC's. It sounds great, no issues with HDMI and, at the levels I play it, no issues with distortion nor noise. But of course there always will be people wanting to buy something that is 'class leading' in any measurement even if your ears never will be able to hear the difference. Which doesn't mean I belief it's the right way forward for Sound United by any means but I do belief the 4700 is right now the 'bargain of the month' even with the PCM DAC's.

I bought it for less than € 1400 one year ago in NL, added a Marantz MM7025 amp to be able to play a 7.1.4 setup and it rocks! Really you can't hear any difference when playing all 11 channels... For stereo I added a Topping DAC (€ 50,00....) and stream Apple Music through it via the analog CD-in. Great but to be honest I don'hear any difference when playing the same music via Airplay 2. So... if you still can get the 4700 ánd are not a 'SINAD-fetishist' I only can advice; buy i

Hi, I am a bit confused. I am brand new to this and am super confused about why do I need an external amp to run 7.1.4? Shouldn't 4700 be able to do it without an external amp? It says 9.2 so I assume 9 regular and 2 subs. What am I missing,?