Avantone Pro MixCube Monitor Review

[bennybbbx]

Sure i can hear it, strange is its more easy to hear on the tablet then on the speakers. Makes me wonder how much FR plays a role in this? Or in other words how much does more bass masks this

When the speaker is not good or left and right speaker have not same distance to ear and precise it can not hear so good. if a speaker have larger group dellay in the bass transients are fit not so good. (see my group delay posts) and if remove the bass of music help to get better precision on worse speaker. if you have a speaker or headphone that have also in low bass not more group delay as 0.1 ms then bass should not matter .

There can also do sine tone at 100 hz and delay left channel 0.3 ms . then can hear clear it is not on mid . maybe to examine this more can do tests with sine tone of diffrent frequency 60 hz 80 hz 100 hz 120 hz 160 hz 200 hz and delay 1 channel 0.3 ms . then it should clear hearable out of mid

 

[RobL]

When the speaker is not good or left and right speaker have not same distance to ear and precise it can not hear so good. if a speaker have larger group dellay in the bass transients are fit not so good. (see my group delay posts) and if remove the bass of music help to get better precision on worse speaker. if you have a speaker or headphone that have also in low bass not more group delay as 0.1 ms then bass should not matter .

There can also do sine tone at 100 hz and delay left channel 0.3 ms . then can hear clear it is not on mid . maybe to examine this more can do tests with sine tone of diffrent frequency 60 hz 80 hz 100 hz 120 hz 160 hz 200 hz and delay 1 channel 0.3 ms . then it should clear hearable out of mid

I can hear the 0.5 ms delay on my tablet, earbuds and speakers. I can’t hear the 0.2 ms delay…is that normal?

 

[bennybbbx]

I can hear the 0.5 ms delay on my tablet, earbuds and speakers. I can’t hear the 0.2 ms delay…is that normal?

in wikipedia stand with a link to the sources who measured this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization

Localization accuracy is 1 degree for sources in front of the listener and 15 degrees for sources to the sides. Humans can discern interaural time differences of 10 microseconds or less.[9][10]

i hear that not so good. 10 microsevonds are 0.01 ms . I hear 0.2 ms clear on headphone. 0.1 ,ms is not so clear. below i hear not . with speakers is 0.2 ms not so clear also the reverb .

people that hear that not so good can be also happy . they can save alot of money and need not a speaker with good phase . I think the 0.2 ms accuracy is enough to hear room feeling. intresting to know if you can hear diffrent reverb and room size in this 2 examples waves. then 0.5 ms is also enough large rooms and reverb make more fun for me to hear. please try this example. it have 2 version 1 normal reverb and 1 with stereo spreader make extrem large. when you hear clear diffrence then i think you can hear ITD good enough

 

[bennybbbx]

see the group delay with the spinorama.txt is only a import error of REW i ask in rew forum . i delete the posts that show that https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/i...-in-group-delay-and-excess-group-delay.11849/

Those files are not impulse responses, they are columns of SPL values at different angles. REW cannot import them correctly as it assumes the third figure in each line is a phase value, it is actually a repeat of the frequency value for the next set of data. There is no phase data in the file so nothing to use to generate group delay. Producing a minimum phase response from the SPL values doesn't tell you anything about the measured phase.

 

[RobL]

in wikipedia stand with a link to the sources who measured this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization



i hear that not so good. 10 microsevonds are 0.01 ms . I hear 0.2 ms clear on headphone. 0.1 ,ms is not so clear. below i hear not . with speakers is 0.2 ms not so clear also the reverb .

people that hear that not so good can be also happy . they can save alot of money and need not a speaker with good phase . I think the 0.2 ms accuracy is enough to hear room feeling. intresting to know if you can hear diffrent reverb and room size in this 2 examples waves. then 0.5 ms is also enough large rooms and reverb make more fun for me to hear. please try this example. it have 2 version 1 normal reverb and 1 with stereo spreader make extrem large. when you hear clear diffrence then i think you can hear ITD good enough

Yes I can hear a difference between them, but more difference through my speakers than through my earbuds. On my speakers the background synth tone practically disappears when it makes the pitch change.

 

[mhardy6647]

I can hear the 0.5 ms delay on my tablet, earbuds and speakers. I can’t hear the 0.2 ms delay…is that normal?

How does one know that the audible effect is not an artifact of the reproduction system (i.e., the cheesy audio output of the tablet).
This question's not aimed at you @RobL -- but I am always curious about such things! If anyone can tell me how the variables at the "listener's" end of a demo like this one are controlled for, I'm (heh-heh) all ears!

You know, sort of like comparing the sound of two different copies of some recorded work (or two different loudspeakers' sound) via youtube video.

 

[fpitas]

Yes, they have no bass. So the question is what happens to the transients if there is bass?

I see tremendous frequency response swings in the treble, too. Any transients will now have all that extra stuff included.

 

[RobL]

How does one know that the audible effect is not an artifact of the reproduction system (i.e., the cheesy audio output of the tablet).
This question's not aimed at you @RobL -- but I am always curious about such things! If anyone can tell me how the variables at the "listener's" end of a demo like this one are controlled for, I'm (heh-heh) all ears!

You know, sort of like comparing the sound of two different copies of some recorded work (or two different loudspeakers' sound) via youtube video.

In this case, the percussion moves location from center to right…I think only a channel delay would cause this.

Edit- centre to right side I mean

 

[Bartez2000]

What did you use in live and pre-pro TV production?

Billie Eilish’s brother produced her whole debut (and breakthrough) hit album in the box on a pair of yam hs5 and the sub.

Did you use a sub?

Hehe

I don't want to talk nonsense, but it seems to me that there was production on hs5 but the master & mix was on ProAc's Studio 100 + Yamaha Ns10m

 

[Hexspa]

you can try other speaker and compare when you do EQ the other speaker so it sound as the avantone. I also can make testsongs use a phase shifter that delay 50-100 hz around 2 ms and hear this in headphones and compare. then you can check if you hear diffrence in bass reverb. too. have you do the IDT hearing tests and you can hear ITD ?. see in this video . ITD seem the first that happen with hearing loss when hear often loud music. here you can test and read how ITD hearing work. in general for ITD hear speakers need best no group delay. if low freq or not human hear the soundsource in angle of 40 degree(which is alot) if the diffrence between left and right channel is 0.32 ms . and if a speaker have below 100 hz more group delay it have problem. here is the table to positions https://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio-webdav/handbook/Binaural_Hearing.html

Thanks, I’ll check this out later.

 

[Hexspa]

Why are you attacking me? I'm on your side! Jesus. Good luck and goodbye.

I didn’t mean to attack you! On the contrary. I thought it was a good post and some of it made me laugh - in the good sense. Come back!

 

[Hexspa]

Are the "good transients" worth the compromise in the context of competing speakers that have slightly worse transients but better measurements elsewhere? I'm just inquisitive as I have not examined the importance of transients in the context of a mixing monitor like this.

I’ll say this: about a year or two ago, there was a free site called audiodrillz.app for audio ear training. It was an awesome competitor to sound gym and I used it daily for months. The compression ratio and release drills were very hard but the compression attack time drill was easy with the mix cube. I know it seems to conflict with Toole’s minimum phase argument but these were objective blind tests with scores and everything. Until now I totally forgot I did that. I even had the top score for awhile. Anyway, when I say this speaker has been useful, I’m not whistling Dixie. I’ve released three EPs, a number of singles, and around a hundred videos using this thing over about 10 years of daily use. If such a flawed specimen can be of such use, imagine a good one!

 

[Hexspa]

I don't want to talk nonsense, but it seems to me that there was production on hs5 but the master & mix was on ProAc's Studio 100 + Yamaha Ns10m

Finneas definitely didn’t mix that record. Even then, I thought it was Billie with the HS setup. Finneas must’ve had his own speakers but I didn’t know they were the same.

This whole anecdote has mixed value for me. On one hand it’s liberating: don’t need a big Neve and soffit mains to produce. On the other hand, it’s another kilometer in the race to the bottom. Hopefully people realize that not everything is what it seems and that the golden mean tends to hold the key. Specifically, they used some cheap gear and guerella tactics for part of the process but they 100% paid someone(s) with expensive stuff and pro methods to cover their tracks.

 

[bennybbbx]

In this case, the percussion moves location from center to right…I think only a channel delay would cause this.

Edit- centre to right side I mean

yes the pan is only done with the short delay. In the video you see the output levelmeter in right down place. it have always same level in left and right

Yes I can hear a difference between them, but more difference through my speakers than through my earbuds. On my speakers the background synth tone practically disappears when it makes the pitch change.

this i mean not. i mean if you have the feeling in 1 wav that it play in a larger room as the other wav.

 

[RobL]

yes the pan is only done with the short delay. In the video you see the output levelmeter in right down place. it have always same level in left and right



this i mean not. i mean if you have the feeling in 1 wav that it play in a larger room as the other wav.

Yes, width 4 has the expander on.

 

[markanini]

Yeah. Maybe some guy somewhere thinks these can help him make mixes that travel well. Good luck to him and all that. I wouldn't let them in the house.

Its okay, it's not for you. The majority of of songs you will listen to through all life have been check on small speakers, like mixcubes, for you in advance. You won't have to worry about it.

 

[RobL]

In Sound On Sounds review of the Avatone he (Mike Senior) gives these reasons for the usefulness of this speaker:

“Firstly, its frequency response is very heavy on the mid‑range, which is the section of any mix that is most likely to survive to the listener: a comparatively limited number of playback systems manage serious low‑frequency output, and high frequencies are very easily lost if a playback device is heard off-axis or acoustically shadowed. The result is that if you get your balance right on an Auratone it's much more likely to translate across a wide range of speaker systems, both lo‑fi and hi‑fi. What's more, the speaker's ability to communicate relative balance information about a mix is exceptional. One reason for this is that there are no crossover artifacts and fewer inter‑driver phasing issues if you move around the monitoring room; and if you listen to a single Auratone in mono, as many engineers do, you get further advantages of no inter‑speaker phasing, a real image for all instruments (easier to balance than the phantom images of central instruments on stereo speakers) and a free mono‑compatibility check! The other main reason for their unbeatable balancing ability is that their sound is less affected by time‑domain smearing, both because the infinite‑baffle cabinet design has fewer resonances than most ported designs, and because its limited frequency range interacts very little with low‑frequency room modes.”

I don’t know, some fondness for these may be the result of nostalgia for a legacy studio fixture but it does seem many people find them genuinely useful.

 

[ctrl]

A small note on the discussion of the superior "transient" behavior of the Avantone speaker.

The unbalanced frequency response and the FR in shape of a bandpass filter means that the group delay (as a measure of transient behavior) of the Avantone speaker is not particularly good, especially in the frequency range below 500Hz.

A normal 2-way speaker shows better GD below 500Hz and can keep up well above (both are well below the perception threshold).

2-way speaker (blue curve - FR) versus MixCube (red curve - FR) - FR and normal phase


Group delay 2-way speaker (green curve) versus MixCube (black curve)

On top of that, the MixCube speaker has a lot of (very likely) slow decaying resonances that ruin any good transient behavior. According to Amir's CSD, the resonance around 5kHz, for example, needs more than twelve oscillation periods until it is damped by 25dB. The 7kHz needs even more oscillation periods...
.

 

[heflys20]

I don’t know, some fondness for these may be the result of nostalgia for a legacy studio fixture but it does seem many people find them genuinely useful.

I'm skeptical of the lack of time-smearing and resonances claim, but I digress. It's true, you'll mostly find such speakers in studios due to their reputation/nostalgia. Speakers (both consumer and professional) have come a long way since these entered the market. There's also a good change you'll encounter speakers that can change their sound signature (thus replicating a mix-cube) in studios these days, too.

 

[dasdoing]

I gave this one a shot, maybe I'll share it later,

now you have to show lol

The song sounds way better if you take out the organ entirely for instance.

I don't feel like this is a valid option lol. there is no artist feedback, but we have to assume they want it in the mix. I am aware though that 99% of people that fun-mixed this and even the oficial mix (that seams to be amateur, too) removed it. I think the main problem here was that all tracks are mono. without a widning plugin it is impossible to pull off.

If I'd offer a criticism on your mix, the verb on the vox doesn't work, it sounds better dry IMO

I like to think of mixes as a band playing in a hall. I am aware that this is an outdated aprouch. today the vocalists are ¨sitting on your lap" and the band is in the background. If the band had payed me to mix this, I would make the vocals more modern.
That´s not to say that I am totaly happy with how it turned out. the vocal track is actually broken, and the more you tweak it the dirtier it becomes. In a professional context I would have demanded her to re-record her part.

You mixed this on your TV?

not really. As I explained, I redid the kick on the TV. one thing that I remember now that was very surprising is the vocal level (someone else mentioned similar here somewhere). because of the narrow stereo triangle you have with TV speakers the vocals suddenly have to fight more for space with the ambience. So I also did the vocal level on the TV (louder). it's kind of sad, cause in a real stereo triangle it would glue better leaving it a little quieter. that shows the dilema of the pros. they have to make it sound good for everyone. TV speakers, laptops, phones......