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Avantone Pro MixCube Monitor Review

Rate this speaker:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 169 83.3%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 15 7.4%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 4 2.0%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 15 7.4%

  • Total voters
    203

Hexspa

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Is this the worst speaker ever measured? The claimed professional usage to replicate bad systems is hilarious. The resonance could not possibly be representative of an entire class of crap audio devices. If the idea is to add distortion and limit FR, any studio will have a better electronic and repeatable way to do that.
It doesn’t add much distortion at the level people use it at and, as I’m learning, having no crossover minimizes phase shift. Plus, it has symmetrical and narrow directivity besides being intended for nearfield so it minimizes room interference. Granted, this particular model might have lower than ideal execution but I think the existence of similar physical products has merit. In other words, those who say things along the lines of, “Just DSP it,” aren’t accounting for all the potential virtues of this tool.

Please know, I have perhaps a dozen saturation plugins and know of others which let you dial in specific harmonic overtones. I have several EQs which offer minimum phase slopes from 6dB/oct to 120dB/oct and linear phase ones to boot. In my arsenal, I have unlimited PEQ filters, mid-side options, dynamics processing, analysis tools including REW and a linear omnidirectional condenser mic with which to use it.

With that in mind, I have found the cube to be useful. Can someone use just DSP to replicate many characteristics this speaker exhibits? Yes. Is that identical to “the real thing”. No. Is it close enough for professional use? Probably. Does there still remain value in the physical box? I think so. Is having one of these essential? Almost certainly not.
 

Hexspa

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That's exactly the opposite of what I said: "I also believe the reason this types of speakers can be helpful to some is because of their strengths and not their weaknesses (uneven frequency response and resonances)".

On the first page I already said these type of speakers are a thing of the past, so doesn't make sense to compare them to LS50's. I also don't understand why you keep on bashing pro sound production techniques based on the graphs of the Avantones while I repeatedly said these are not the speakers pro studio's use. Even better; in this thread different sound engineers testified they worked in studio's with Auratones but don't use them, or just use them for a specific reason like checking low end translation.
I think a main point of conflict here is, like you say, the crowd here seems not to be primarily those in audio production. Not that audio pros are more open minded! It’s just that not everyone wants to know what goes into the sausage they eat. And when they do find out, maybe they don’t want to believe it.

I don’t know, I’m speculating. By no means am I a psychologist. But as a lay person, I see a lot of ruffled feathers around measurements and people’s assessment of how important they are. The stereotype is subjectivity vs objectivity.

To me, this speaker is a good example of how ‘bad’ can be ‘good’. Just as too much medicine can be toxic, a little poison can be a cure. This speaker would fail QC if it was meant to perform like a KH 80, for example. But it’s not.

In fairness, I’ll be definitely reevaluating my position on this speaker once I get it back and have my new room set up. Maybe the DSP people have a point: this is an outdated device. Or, maybe, the deficiencies of DSP will show just how valuable this kind of speaker can be. I’m not sure if that’s objective or subjective.
 

DavidMcRoy

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I think a main point of conflict here is, like you say, the crowd here seems not to be primarily those in audio production. Not that audio pros are more open minded! It’s just that not everyone wants to know what goes into the sausage they eat. And when they do find out, maybe they don’t want to believe it.

I don’t know, I’m speculating. By no means am I a psychologist. But as a lay person, I see a lot of ruffled feathers around measurements and people’s assessment of how important they are. The stereotype is subjectivity vs objectivity.

To me, this speaker is a good example of how ‘bad’ can be ‘good’. Just as too much medicine can be toxic, a little poison can be a cure. This speaker would fail QC if it was meant to perform like a KH 80, for example. But it’s not.

In fairness, I’ll be definitely reevaluating my position on this speaker once I get it back and have my new room set up. Maybe the DSP people have a point: this is an outdated device. Or, maybe, the deficiencies of DSP will show just how valuable this kind of speaker can be. I’m not sure if that’s objective or subjective.
Exactly. It's a tool. And guess what? The main goal most of the time in sound design isn't to make transparent, laboratory-spec recordings and broadcasts. It's to get a big audience and make money.

As audio designer and engineer Nelson Pass so poignantly reminds us, audio is part of the entertainment industry. You probably won't find Pass Labs amplifiers in the blue region of ASR SINAD rankings, but a lot of people love the way they sound. Pass's designs are intended to sound "euphonic" and they mostly are. They're designed to bring pleasure to a certain segment of people by adding a modicum of a distortion profile that Pass deems pleasant, and professionals often use plugins or black boxes that's do much the same thing to sound we all hear every day.

Control/confidence speakers are supposed to be a tool for professionals, references for real-world crappiness if you will, not a reference for transparency. To the extent that they help the bottom line, they are useful and successful. High quality headphones and the big he-man speakers in the control room are what we turn to for transparency, and even there there are imperfections and tradeoffs to be considered. And is professional audio production a strictly hard science, no-nonsense endeavor? No. It isn't. And hand wringing and pearl clutching aren't going to change that.
 
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markanini

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By no means am I a psychologist. But as a lay person, I see a lot of ruffled feathers around measurements and people’s assessment of how important they are. The stereotype is subjectivity vs objectivity.
Everyone sees it, expect those who engage with that style. It's the naive will to carry the worlds problems on your shoulders, that's rather grounded in escapism. In laymans terms white knights and activists. A subset of objectivist audio enthusiast have these traits big time and find an outlet.
 
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Robbo99999

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I'd just like to go on record saying that I find these posts ridiculous. Additionally, I really think there is a lot of "fancy hooey" in general being talked by this individual in this thread, I see it as a version of classic audiophile snake oil mindset trying to be tinged with garnishings of ASR objectivity mindset, I find it pretty objectionable and possibly of questionable authenticity. I know I'm being a bit vague in this post, but it's hard to describe, but I can't hide my aversion for the style & content & possible mindset behind it.
 

Hexspa

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i think see group delay of speaker is important. here is for compare to avatone also kali lp6 1. wave and focal alpha 65 evo. the kali i think sound very worse for my ears and around 1 khz this is the reason i guess

View attachment 271237

the focal alpha 65 evo .

View attachment 271238
I found some research on the audibility of group delay from 500Hz-4kHz which they identify as the most sensitive band of our hearing. Waves calls 400Hz-6kHz the 'box' translation zone of audio. Taken together, this is the best range where to test the absolute limits of our ability to hear this artefact.

What I understand of their findings is that +-1ms is the threshold of perception for impulses and more than that for short hi hats and castinets. The latter requiring 1.5-4.5ms positive delay and 1.0-2.3ms negative delay (playing ahead of time). Let say that for actual music, nobody is hearing less than 3-5ms of group delay. Sound at 343m/s goes 0.343m (13.5") in 1ms. 3ms means about 1m so anything in that graph you're showing would be easier and more immediately useful to someone who doesn't know this by using 1m as the minimum Y-axis division, if we're talking about audibility, instead of the 0.2m.

Even though the Mixcube has less midrange group delay than the other examples you showed, the difference should be inaudible under all but the most analytical conditions. In other words, unless you're specifically listening for it, these speakers sound identical in that regard for the 500Hz-4kHz bandwidth.

Now that I think of it, "the most analytical conditions" actually do come up fairly regularly in music production. Still, the absolute minimum detectable is more like 1/3m worth of delay but I guess you can't divide up the Y-axis like that. Either way, though I think I'm nit picking, less resolution in that graph would better reflect our perceptions.

TLDR: Analytical listening tolerates up to 1/3m (1ms) group delay and regular listening probably about 1m (3ms) in the midrange.
 
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MaxwellsEq

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Control/confidence speakers are supposed to be a tool for professionals, references for real-world crappiness if you will, not a reference for transparency. To the extent that they help the bottom line, they are useful and successful.
This is exactly the point.
 

Hexspa

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Exactly. It's a tool. And guess what? The main goal most of the time in sound design isn't to make transparent, laboratory-spec recordings and broadcasts. It's to get a big audience and make money.

As audio designer and engineer Nelson Pass so poignantly reminds us, audio is part of the entertainment industry. You probably won't find Pass Labs amplifiers in the blue region of ASR SINAD rankings, but a lot of people love the way they sound. Pass's designs are intended to sound "euphonic" and they mostly are. They're designed to bring pleasure to a certain segment of people by adding a modicum of a distortion profile that Pass deems pleasant, and professionals often use plugins or black boxes that's do much the same thing to sound we all hear every day.

Control/confidence speakers are supposed to be a tool for professionals, references for real-world crappiness if you will, not a reference for transparency. To the extent that they help the bottom line, they are useful and successful. High quality headphones and the big he-man speakers in the control room are what we turn to for transparency, and even there there are imperfections and tradeoffs to be considered. And is professional audio production a strictly hard science, no-nonsense endeavor? No. It isn't. And hand wringing and pearl clutching aren't going to change that.
Haha. Ok, smart guy. This was pretty funny. Thank you for reminding me that the goal of life is rockstardom :D

But hand wringing and pearl clutching? I'm just going to let you lighten the vibe but I'm reserving the right to pull that out at a later time. :)
 

Hexspa

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Everyone sees it, expect those who engage with that style. It's the naive will to carry the worlds problems on your shoulders, that's rather grounded in escapism. In laymans terms white knights and activists. A subset of objectivist audio enthusiast have these traits big time and find an outlet.
Deep statement.

"Carrying the worlds problems on your shoulders is grounded in escapism."

...and then trying to offload the weight on someone else!

Yep, I'm sometimes guilty of that.
 

fpitas

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If its a usefull tool for some people, great.

Is it speaker i would buy to listen to music?


:) Hell, NO!
Yeah. Maybe some guy somewhere thinks these can help him make mixes that travel well. Good luck to him and all that. I wouldn't let them in the house.
 

Hexspa

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It’s just a work tool. Sometimes I use a circular saw, sometimes I used a band saw, sometimes I used a router, sometimes I use a table saw. Sometimes I can’t be bothered and just use a hacksaw or small branch pruner(!).

Whether I make better or award winning furniture or crappy furniture than you may have nothing to do with what I’m using.

Maybe I just have more patience or experience or skill (or less) than you. Or a moment of inspiration? Or elbow grease?
Or it came to me in dream or a vision?

You don’t need a Mont Blanc to write Purlitzer Prize winning novel. And although some swear by their typewriter or MacBook they are neither necessary or sufficient.

The analogy in song writing or production that the kids who think they need a ProTools or Logic Pro setup and the latest “state of the art” monitor like the KH150 to write; just like their favourite musician/producer.

Give the guy a break…
I don't know if I already replied to this but I'm reading it differently right now. What I'm hearing you say is that it's the craftsperson's skill, not the particular tool. Mostly I agree: some jobs do require specialized tools and, in the details of the work, you may see differences in the end.

But why I'm here is because Harman said, "Speaker preference is not what you think and here's why." What I want is to snap my fingers, not even that really because less effort would be better, and have someone do that same research into 'translation'. Similar to how Harman's 'trained listeners' had more consistently identified and preferred the kinds of speakers you see rated highly via that score today, I wonder if there could ever be a 'translation score' for speakers that, with a large sample size, produce subjectively better mixes. 'Trained mixers' will probably perform better on and be able to identify such speakers just as 'trained listeners' could identify speakers they simply enjoyed listening to. I would say the score should obviously be the same but I find disagreement that 'flat speakers' are best to mix on.

Why do mixers disagree with Harman?

Maybe these people have hearing damage. For sure, Mr. Toole said, "If your hearing is even minimally damaged, your ability to discern the quality of the loudspeaker is diminished." I believe he said this in his video interview with Erin's Audio Corner. Hearing damage is conceivably the norm in pro audio. This could explain why some mixers don't think they can mix on flat speakers: they can't hear right and need compensation. Let's call this the "The ATC SCM25A is a $4k Hearing Aid" hypothesis.

Or, perhaps, some of the Harman data does not apply to nearfield. Some of Amir's posted measurements don't, or at least do less. Amir sometimes calls for absorbing or preserving specific sets of early reflections; "preserve sides, absorb ceiling" etc. The corollary is that indiscriminately removing all of them will alter the tonality of the speaker. Ideally, a pro audio room has not been "indiscriminately" treated but may have been designed independently of the current loudspeaker that lives there. In any case, nearfield is different than far field so that can poke holes in the applicability. This isn't a new idea here, I've read it on this site many times. This means that the pro mixers who think Spinorama is garbage could be simply not accounting for the change in use case. We can map this discrepancy to any of the Spinorama data points as to why they don't apply to nearfield mixing - not just enjoyment. This we can call the "Speakers 2 Close 2 Spin" hypothesis.

I'm feeling tired of typing and forgot the original point. Oh, right: tools vs skill. No doubt but they might not cancel each other out as in the oversimplifying statement, "It's your ears not the gear." Andrew Scheps, who I can specifically recall saying this in one of his videos with Fab DuPont, then goes on to say he listens back on his Tannoys after mixing in headphones. Now that I review the video, he talks a lot about getting your monitoring situation into something that works no matter how many or few monitors it takes. That's not the video where he says "ears not gear" but no matter. Fab does say that some control rooms have their mains EQed to match certain mixing engineers by which Scheps seems appalled. Also he talks about the "midrange push" which I assume to mean in pro monitors and how, without it, a speaker sounds "bright". That could be a clue into my quest for a 'translation' score. In fairness, Scheps has some unique perspectives on room acoustics and speakers that I haven't heard anyone else express so maybe he's not the best example for this kind of thing. He does make good mixes though.

Let's just agree on a middle point of gear matters a little but it doesn't do much all by itself.
 
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Hexspa

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If its a usefull tool for some people, great.

Is it speaker i would buy to listen to music?


:) Hell, NO!
Let me just say one thing about this: it's great for apartments if you don't want to disturb your neighbors with bass at crazy artist hours and you don't have DSP. Sure, you might be disturbing yourself but that is forgivable. But, given its flaws, maybe this particular cube isn't the right one to buy unless you need a single active one since Auratone doesn't sell individual active 5Cs at this time.

But I'll keep 'er on a leash, don't worry :)
 

MaxwellsEq

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If its a usefull tool for some people, great.

Is it speaker i would buy to listen to music?


:) Hell, NO!
I've been in loads of different studios with the Auratones in (there were, of course also nearfield or main monitors as well). Despite the easy access, I would not normally chose to listen to music on them whilst doing other studio work.

I never met anyone who defended their sound quality, other than as a check tool.
 

bennybbbx

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I don’t know how to interpret phase as it relates to amplitude response. Yes, the group delay has a flatter slope. From what I understand, group delay is mostly inaudible in low frequencies up to a certain point. I don’t know what that audibility threshold is per frequency though. To make use of these metrics you’re showing, we need to know if they’re audible. Absolute phase is inaudible, from what I understand but the phase relationships among simultaneous frequencies is audible. Basically, I don’t know how to convert what your showing into what I hear. If you can elaborate, I’ll appreciate it.

you can try other speaker and compare when you do EQ the other speaker so it sound as the avantone. I also can make testsongs use a phase shifter that delay 50-100 hz around 2 ms and hear this in headphones and compare. then you can check if you hear diffrence in bass reverb. too. have you do the IDT hearing tests and you can hear ITD ?. see in this video . ITD seem the first that happen with hearing loss when hear often loud music. here you can test and read how ITD hearing work. in general for ITD hear speakers need best no group delay. if low freq or not human hear the soundsource in angle of 40 degree(which is alot) if the diffrence between left and right channel is 0.32 ms . and if a speaker have below 100 hz more group delay it have problem. here is the table to positions https://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio-webdav/handbook/Binaural_Hearing.html

 
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Exprymer

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Nice to see this speaker here. It really is an wonderful tool in studio.

Considering the beaming, it almost guarantee a clean direct sound from speaker to ear even in very small rooms on the upper midrange.

The usual position on studio is on the studio desk which offer a natural low end boost.

The Impulse response says a lot actually. These little guy make it so easy to use compression and mixing. You can hear the interference between 2 signals quite clearly. There's one saying: "small speakers make big mixes". If you can hear the kick and bassline clearly on this system, it will translate into whatever system. This is it's main strenght. The fast impulse response does have it's uses.

Even the lack of high end help the engineer to properly clean the high end. But lowpassing information of instruments it makes more room for stuff that it's supposed to be there.

This guy is very bad. But is very good :) Thanks Amir!
 

DavidMcRoy

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Haha. Ok, smart guy. This was pretty funny. Thank you for reminding me that the goal of life is rockstardom :D

But hand wringing and pearl clutching? I'm just going to let you lighten the vibe but I'm reserving the right to pull that out at a later time. :)
Why are you attacking me? I'm on your side! Jesus. Good luck and goodbye.
 

tomtoo

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you can try other speaker and compare when you do EQ the other speaker so it sound as the avantone. I also can make testsongs use a phase shifter that delay 50-100 hz around 2 ms and hear this in headphones and compare. then you can check if you hear diffrence in bass reverb. too. have you do the IDT hearing tests and you can hear ITD ?. see in this video . ITD seem the first that happen with hearing loss when hear often loud music. here you can test and read how ITD hearing work. in general for ITD hear speakers need best no group delay. if low freq or not human hear the soundsource in angle of 40 degree(which is alot) if the diffrence between left and right channel is 0.32 ms . and if a speaker have below 100 hz more group delay it have problem. here is the table to positions https://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio-webdav/handbook/Binaural_Hearing.html



Sure i can hear it, strange is its more easy to hear on the tablet then on the speakers. Makes me wonder how much FR plays a role in this? Or in other words how much does more bass masks this?
 
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Spocko

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Single wideband driver in sealed box with no filters is the easiest way to have good transients.
But everything else in such product is single big downside.
Are the "good transients" worth the compromise in the context of competing speakers that have slightly worse transients but better measurements elsewhere? I'm just inquisitive as I have not examined the importance of transients in the context of a mixing monitor like this.
 

tomtoo

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Single wideband driver in sealed box with no filters is the easiest way to have good transients.
But everything else in such product is single big downside.

Yes, they have no bass. So the question is what happens to the transients if there is bass?
 
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