AV20 vs. Tide16 vs. APR-16

[welwynnick]

I mostly play 2-ch (recently got Mofi V10s so ditched my subs), watch TV and stream videos, and infrequently play games on my old PS3.
When folks say the Tide16 is bad for gaming, are they referring to its inability to handle the latest hi-res, high frame rate gaming or gaming in general because of laggy processing or something else?

The issue with the Tide16 is that it has HDMI 2.0 connections instead of HDMI 2.1.
The latter supports 4k video at 120Hz, which is (questionably) PS5 territory.
The PS3 won't get near that, so I don't think you'll have any problem at all.
It's just that you're not future-proofed against a high end gaming PC with the latest and greatest GPUs.

 

[PGAMiami]

I’m mostly about the audio quality and ended up buying an APR16 that’s currently being tested by Amir, so I can’t add much on your video question. But on audio, you may want to try using subs with the V10s. I have TAD R1s that are in many ways similar to the V10s. I think both have plenty of bass. But what I learned is that it’s about the room not the speaker. Adding 4 subs and Dirac ART transformed totally how my R1s sound.

 

[MrPotatoHead]

But on audio, you may want to try using subs with the V10s. Adding 4 subs and Dirac ART transformed totally how my R1s sound.

I enjoyed my two subs with my DIY speakers but suspected that I never had them properly integrated. Maybe I'll reintroduce them to my system if I get a Dirac ART-capable processor, but they're on the small side.

 

[Eric Larson]

well my Tide16 is in Alaska today. expect NJ tomorrow.

Meanwhile UPS is bumbling around with some paperwork that they picked up in MA Tuesday.

 

[Pizzaiolo]

Going back to the OP's question of how to decide among the AV20, Tide16 and APR-16.

I have had the AV20 for 3 months in my 7.4.4 system and I am using Dirac ART. It worked perfectly right out of the box and has worked and sounded great in my room. My only "issue" is that its DSP processing power limits ART to just 96 "filter taps," which impedes ART from reaching its full potential (prevents ART from fully leveraging all support speakers). Not sure if more filter taps would make an audible difference, however. But the Monolith ATP-1, despite its age, enables 200+ taps and includes ART for just $4300. Had I known about the filter tap limitation of D/M processors, I may have opted for the ATP-1.

Re the Tide, although I have no experience with it, I was an Emotiva owner for nearly 5 years (RMC-1L and XMC-2+), and I got tired of waiting for the promised functionality to "arrive" and for bugs to get resolved. I fear the Tide may have similar teething issues.

The APR-16 test on ASR was just released, and it scored at the top of the charts on nearly every test, except one, which prevented Amir from recommending it. As with the Tide, I have no personal experience with this processor.

My recommendation? AV20 or Monolith ATP-1.

 

[peng]

Going back to the OP's question of how to decide among the AV20, Tide16 and APR-16.

I have had the AV20 for 3 months in my 7.4.4 system and I am using Dirac ART. It worked perfectly right out of the box and has worked and sounded great in my room. My only "issue" is that its DSP processing power limits ART to just 96 "filter taps," which impedes ART from reaching its full potential (prevents ART from fully leveraging all support speakers). Not sure if more filter taps would make an audible difference, however. But the Monolith ATP-1, despite its age, enables 200+ taps and includes ART for just $4300. Had I known about the filter tap limitation of D/M processors, I may have opted for the ATP-1.

Re the Tide, although I have no experience with it, I was an Emotiva owner for nearly 5 years (RMC-1L and XMC-2+), and I got tired of waiting for the promised functionality to "arrive" and for bugs to get resolved. I fear the Tide may have similar teething issues.

The APR-16 test on ASR was just released, and it scored at the top of the charts on nearly every test, except one, which prevented Amir from recommending it. As with the Tide, I have no personal experience with this processor.

My recommendation? AV20 or Monolith ATP-1.

I find the apr 16 interesting but I would prefer the Tide16 and AV10 because of the not near SOTA IMD and the LF issue Amir found and also the high price, as I see no need for Dante so don’t feel lime for something K won’t ise.

miniDSP has good track record on fixing known bugs quickly so I feel confident they will do the same for the Tide. No doubt they will top the chart in terms of bench tests but those who needs more hdmi inputs and hdmi 2.1 may not like the idea of having to add an external device. The AV20 really is a good option overall.

 

[welwynnick]

My only "issue" is that its DSP processing power limits ART to just 96 "filter taps," which impedes ART from reaching its full potential (prevents ART from fully leveraging all support speakers). Not sure if more filter taps would make an audible difference, however. But the Monolith ATP-1, despite its age, enables 200+ taps and includes ART for just $4300. Had I known about the filter tap limitation of D/M processors, I may have opted for the ATP-1.

Those aren't filter taps. Filter taps are the rolling array of time domain data samples and their associated multipliers that are simultaneously processed during each word cycle.
I think what you're referring to are the frequency domain filters that cross couple and support each bass-generating speaker and sub.
I'm not sure why 98 support filters are inadequate since they allow 10 bass-capable speakers to support each-other.
More is better, but 98 sounds enough for anyone. Do your height speakers work down to 20Hz?

Re the Tide, although I have no experience with it, I was an Emotiva owner for nearly 5 years (RMC-1L and XMC-2+), and I got tired of waiting for the promised functionality to "arrive" and for bugs to get resolved. I fear the Tide may have similar teething issues.

It's only just out the door, and the first bug has been found and fixed already.

 

[Pizzaiolo]

Thanks for the correction regarding terminology - I believe the correct word is "cross terms."

2 of my 4 heights measure down to 45 Hz, and all of my bed layer speakers measure 25 - 40 Hz. I noticed the deficiency of cross terms when I went from two subs to 4. There were fewer cross terms for my other speakers to support each other and draw support. This was confirmed by the corrected spread graph, which deteriorated for many speakers compared to 2 subs. This may be audible to listeners sitting at the edges of my listening area, but for MLP it was not apparent.

 

[welwynnick]

Wow.

 

[peng]

I expect the Tide16 to output stereo. Dolby and DTS like my lowly XMC2. I’m hoping for a very good crossover so I can continue to have outstanding stereo sound that incorporates my subs (I can then sell my 2 ch preamp). ART is a huge part of this. I have no idea what other features that a “mainstream” processor has but I don’t need whatever they are. Maybe the hdmi switching is slow like the old Emotiva (it’s faster after the latest firmware).

I hear you on what MiniDSP said but that seems like a lot of marketing speak to separate itself from the “mainstream” that usually translates to lower sound quality. Honestly since they said it’s for audiophiles, that means it’s not for any of us in ASR.

May be I missed something, did they really say it is for audiophile?

 

[BJL]

May be I missed something, did they really say it is for audiophile?

Yes the headline on miniDSP's home page overr the Tide 16 is "Surround Processing for Audiophiles"

Is that problematic?

 

[peng]

Yes the headline on miniDSP's home page overr the Tide 16 is "Surround Processing for Audiophiles"

Is that problematic?

Not really, somewhat factual anyway if we consider SINAD chasers are audiophiles too Lol.

 

[Slave IV]

I initially thought the Tide16 sounded like a good fit for me (which would replace my Marantz 8805) so I began following the mega Tide16 thread but quickly became overwhelmed. I mostly play 2-ch (recently got Mofi V10s so ditched my subs), watch TV and stream videos, and infrequently play games on my old PS3. When folks say the Tide16 is bad for gaming, are they referring to its inability to handle the latest hi-res, high frame rate gaming or gaming in general because of laggy processing or something else?

Similar boat here although I'm not ready to replace my even older SR5007 yet, but I came across the Tide 16 when I was checking the minidsp site for something else the other day and was intrigued to see they finally made an AVP type device with Dolby/DTS processing. So naturally, I ended up here.

The issue with the Tide16 is that it has HDMI 2.0 connections instead of HDMI 2.1.
The latter supports 4k video at 120Hz, which is (questionably) PS5 territory.
The PS3 won't get near that, so I don't think you'll have any problem at all.
It's just that you're not future-proofed against a high end gaming PC with the latest and greatest GPUs.

Maybe I'm missing something simple since my brain is a bit fuzzy after reading multiple pages on this already but can't any concerns with input limitations on the Tide be solved by simply plugging in any current generation game consoles or other devices directly into the TV? Then you get the best video the console and TV can provide and the Tide will still handle the audio processing.

 

[darth]

plugging in any current generation game consoles or other devices directly into the TV?

With likely only one caveat if their fav audio format isn't supported by their tv. Or implementation broken. Definitely something that happens even with newer gens like those from LG and Samsung. And then also earc shenanigans aren't too shabby. However for nvidia gsync users this is the way, the only way.

 

[Eric Larson]

Well one concern I can see about that is the latest geatest Sony (Bravia 9 II) TV has only 2 2.1 HDMI ports.

That if it becomes a trend could restrict choices.

I don't game on my big screen so it isn't an issue for me, but it could be for others.

 

[Slave IV]

OK, that makes sense. I don't have any game consoles from the last few generations but just assumed they would mostly be covered.
Well, I'm definitely curious to hear more experience with this as more people start to use it. If it can pretty seamlessly go from stereo to multi-channel audio depending on what I'm watching or listening to without having to adjust a bunch of settings, I think I'd be happy. Most likely just plug a TV and Computer/Media Server into it. If I want to integrate in my turntable, ancient game systems or anything else, I think I can send them all to my Kramer switcher first and then use the last input on the Tide.

 

[welwynnick]

miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

I'm not a HT guy so I'm struggling to understand why HDMI 2.1 is a deal breaker for some. There is a simple workaround using a HDMI adapter. This is an audio forum and from what I can tell this has better audio quality and control than almost every sub £20k AVR out there so why do some keep...

www.audiosciencereview.com

miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

Who exactly is "we", and why do you require PEQ on inputs and FIR on outputs? Please specify your output requirements in more detail. The poster seems to be looking for a Loudspeaker Management System rather than a AVP. I’m afraid even in the pro world these are vanishing due to all the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Maybe I'm missing something simple since my brain is a bit fuzzy after reading multiple pages on this already but can't any concerns with input limitations on the Tide be solved by simply plugging in any current generation game consoles or other devices directly into the TV? Then you get the best video the console and TV can provide and the Tide will still handle the audio processing.

Exactly.

With likely only one caveat if their fav audio format isn't supported by their tv. Or implementation broken. Definitely something that happens even with newer gens like those from LG and Samsung. And then also earc shenanigans aren't too shabby. However for nvidia gsync users this is the way, the only way.

With that caveat - it should work - but it doesn't necessarily work in all instances.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, and I think there are some good reasons for using a separate HDMI 2.1 switch (especially if you can use eARC).
(1) Only the switch has to keep pace with advancing video standards.
(2) It allows video to be separated from the audio processor altogether.
(3) You can use a cheaper audio processor.

I've been trying to keep up with all the different HDMI 2.1 switches that you could use with older generations of AVP, and here's my latest update:

Make	Model	Cost GBP	HDMI ver	HDCP ver	Video In	Video Out	Gbps	4k fps	8k fps	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR	EDID	eARC Audio In	Shared eARC Out	Separate eARC Out	HDMI Audio Out	1	2	3	4	5
AVPro Edge	AC-MX-42X	875	2.1	2.3	4	2	40	120	60	?	?	?	DV	HDR10+	35	-	-	-	Out
BZBGear	8K-42MA	400	2.1	2.3	4	2	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	16	In	Out	-	-	1
BZBGear	8K-HS41A	149	2.1	2.3	4	1	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	8	In	Out	-	-		2
BZBGear	8K-44MA	2499	2.1	2.3	4	4	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	47	-	-	-	Out
EZCOO /	SW41H21A	130	2.1	2.3	4	1	-	120	60	VRR	ALLM	?	DV	HDR10	4	In	-	Out	Out					5
CORSAHD	SW41H21A	130	2.1	2.3	4	1	-	120	60	VRR	ALLM	?	DV	HDR10	4	In	-	Out	Out					5
FeinTech	AX341	176	2.1	2.3	4	2	48	240	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	8	In	-	Out	-
FeinTech	AX340	135	2.1	2.3	4	1	48	240	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	1	In	-	Out	-				4
FeinTech	SW411	123	2.1	2.3	4	1	48	240	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	4	In	-	-	Out			3
FourKay	MX8K42HAE	139	2.1	2.3	4	2	40	120	60	VRR	ALLM		DV	HDR10+	8	-	-	-	Out
FourKay	MX8K42H	142	2.1	2.3	4	2	40	120	60	VRR	ALLM		DV	HDR10+	8	In	Out	-	Out	1
FourKay	MX8K44H	515	2.1	2.3	4	4	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	57	-	-	-	Out
FourKay	MX8K88H	831	2.1	2.3	8	8	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	61	-	-	-	Out
HDFury	VRROOM	549	2.1	2.3	4	2	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	100	In	-	Out	Out
HDFury	Vertex 2	449	2.0b	2.2	4	2	18	60	-	-	ALLM	-	DV	HDR10+	100	In	-	Out	Out
Lindy	38386	161	2.1	2.3	4	1	48	-	60	-	-	-	-	HDR	8	In	Out	-	-		2
Monoprice	8K60	117	2.1	2.3	4	2	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	4	In	-	-	Out			?
Orei	BK-4929	104	2.1	2.3	4	1	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	1	In	-	Out	-				4
Orei	BK-4927	97	2.1	2.3	4	1	48	120	60	-	-	-	DV	HDR10+	4	In	-	-	Out			3
Orei	BK-401ARC	60	2.1	2.3	4	1	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	8	In	Out	-	-		2
Orei	BK-402A	112	2.1	2.3	4	2	40	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	8	In	Out	-	-	1
Orei	BK-404	530	2.1	2.3	4	4	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	54	-	-	-	Out
Orei	BK-808	908	2.1	2.3	8	8	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	58	-	-	-	Out
PureTools	HD41-48G	183	2.1	2.3	4	1	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	36	In	-	-	Out
XOLORspace	46420	114	2.1	2.3	4	2	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	-	DV	HDR10+	8	In	Out	-	-	1
XOLORspace	46440	608	2.1	2.3	4	4	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	-	DV	HDR10+	?	-	-	-	Out

A few more entries have been added - FourKay, Lindy, Monoprice, PureTools & Xolorspace.
I removed all the audio extractors with one input, so all those above have four inputs (or three, if you have to one of them as the eARC output to the AVP).
There's a new column for EDID settings, which may help with system compatibility (though may not be important when using eARC).
Comparing pictures and specs, it's pretty clear there's a lot of badge engineering going on - numbers 1 to 5 are added to show which switches seem to be the same.
Many switches have features like auto power on, auto input select, CEC select, and video scaling, but I haven't pulled that together yet.
AVProEdge make some very capable and expensive HDMI matrix switches

EDIT: Updated with some AVPro and 4x4 and 8x8 matrices - these are very advanced with RS232 and WebUI control, per channel scaling and complex EDID control. I'd recommend following the links and reading the manuals.

 

[Steakhouse]

Well one concern I can see about that is the latest geatest Sony (Bravia 9 II) TV has only 2 2.1 HDMI ports.

That if it becomes a trend could restrict choices.

I don't game on my big screen so it isn't an issue for me, but it could be for others.

That is no trend, it is how Sony does it since many years. BTW there is little reason to go with Sony for TVs. LG OLEDs get you the same performance without Sony upcharge and you get 4 full fat HDMI inputs.

 

[Eric Larson]

Well OLED isn't going to work in my room because it is quite sunny, and the RGB offering is actually a bit more expensive than the equivalent Sony.

But you are right, it does have more HDMI ports. That makes it interesting. Thanks for the pointer.

 

[peng]

miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

I'm not a HT guy so I'm struggling to understand why HDMI 2.1 is a deal breaker for some. There is a simple workaround using a HDMI adapter. This is an audio forum and from what I can tell this has better audio quality and control than almost every sub £20k AVR out there so why do some keep...

www.audiosciencereview.com

miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

Who exactly is "we", and why do you require PEQ on inputs and FIR on outputs? Please specify your output requirements in more detail. The poster seems to be looking for a Loudspeaker Management System rather than a AVP. I’m afraid even in the pro world these are vanishing due to all the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Exactly.

With that caveat - it should work - but it doesn't necessarily work in all instances.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, and I think there are some good reasons for using a separate HDMI 2.1 switch (especially if you can use eARC).
(1) Only the switch has to keep pace with advancing video standards.
(2) It allows video to be separated from the audio processor altogether.
(3) You can use a cheaper audio processor.

I've been trying to keep up with all the different HDMI 2.1 switches that you could use with older generations of AVP, and here's my latest update:

Make	Model	Cost GBP	HDMI ver	HDCP ver	Video In	Video Out	Gbps	4k fps	8k fps	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR	EDID	eARC Audio In	Shared eARC Out	Separate eARC Out	HDMI Audio Out	1	2	3	4	5
BZBGear	8K-42MA	400	2.1	2.3	4	2	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	16	In	Out	-	-	1
BZBGear	8K-HS41A	149	2.1	2.3	4	1	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	8	In	Out	-	-		2
EZCOO /	SW41H21A	130	2.1	2.3	4	1	-	120	60	VRR	ALLM	?	DV	HDR10	4	In	-	Out	Out					5
CORSAHD	SW41H21A	130	2.1	2.3	4	1	-	120	60	VRR	ALLM	?	DV	HDR10	4	In	-	Out	Out					5
FeinTech	AX341	176	2.1	2.3	4	2	48	240	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	8	In	-	Out	-
FeinTech	AX340	135	2.1	2.3	4	1	48	240	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	1	In	-	Out	-				4
FeinTech	SW411	123	2.1	2.3	4	1	48	240	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	4	In	-	-	Out			3
FourKay	HDMI Matrix	142	2.1	2.3	4	1	40	240	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	8	In	Out	-	-	1
HDFury	VRROOM	549	2.1	2.3	4	2	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	100	In	-	Out	Out
HDFury	Vertex 2	449	2.0b	2.2	4	2	18	60	-	-	ALLM	-	DV	HDR10+	100	In	-	Out	Out
Lindy	38386	161	2.1	2.3	4	1	48	-	60	-	-	-	-	HDR	8	In	Out	-	-		2
Monoprice	8K60	117	2.1	2.3	4	2	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	4	In	-	Out	Out			?
Orei	BK-4929	104	2.1	2.3	4	1	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	1	In	-	Out	-				4
Orei	BK-4927	97	2.1	2.3	4	1	48	120	60	-	-	-	DV	HDR10+	4	In	-		Out			3
Orei	BK-401ARC	60	2.1	2.3	4	1	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	8	In	Out	-	-		2
Orei	BK-402A	112	2.1	2.3	4	2	40	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	8	In	Out	-	-	1
Pure Tools	HD41-48G	183	2.1	2.3	4	1	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	QMS	DV	HDR10+	36	In	-	-	Out
XOLORspace	46420	114	2.1	2.3	4	2	48	120	60	VRR	ALLM	-	DV	HDR10+	8	In	Out	-	-	1

View attachment 538739

A few more entries have been added - FourKay, Lindy, Monoprice, PureTools & Xolorspace.
I removed all the audio extractors with one input, so all those above have four inputs (or three, if you have to one of them as the eARC output to the AVP).
There's a new column for EDID settings, which may help with system compatibility (though may not be important when using eARC).
Comparing pictures and specs, it's pretty clear there's a lot of badge engineering going on - numbers 1 to 5 are added to show which switches seem to be the same.
Many switches have features like auto power on, auto input select, CEC select, and video scaling, but I haven't pulled that together yet.
AVProEdge make some very capable and expensive HDMI matrix switches

Thank you, that's a lot of work, but the information is going to be very useful for those who plan on getting the Tide plus one such switch. In a way, miniDSP, on balance, might have made a good decision as by doing what they have done on the video side, they surely have avoided quite a few potential issues that an inexperienced player in this new field (to them), and able to keep the price at the level significantly lower than the likes of the matured brands/models such as the AV20 and Monolith HTP-1. Then if and when the user feels the itch to upgrade the video side, they have options (paid options that is).