AV20 vs. Tide16 vs. APR-16

[peng]

False. Let's revisit the statement from the minidsp team again:

You sounded like you were the authority, but thanks anyway.

 

[PGAMiami]

Right, that might be best for your room. Many other rooms around.

And keeping the soundstage firmly in front is what happens most of the time due to content, but then there are surrounds and surrounds backs, if we count FW as front stage as they probably are. Soundstage in good mixes is everywhere, including Atmos. In poor mixes it does unfortunately end up all up front, which has nothing to do with ART.

I’m referring to how it sounds with 2 channel stereo. Atmos is great for video but I’m not yet a fan of immersive music.

 

[Oddball]

Why would any of these sound different for 2 ch stereo?

 

[PGAMiami]

Why would any of these sound different for 2 ch stereo

I don’t think I was clear, especially since were talking about a multichannel processor. My point is that for regular stereo Dirac ART sounds great in my room. Can’t tell at all that speakers and subs all around the room are supporting the two main

 

[kifeep]

We do know that Dirac has some specific requirements when it comes to ART.. Everything need to be locked up (i.e. can't edit settings on output section once ART loaded as per certification).

It sounds to me like you'll be able to adjust all those output settings - xo, peq, delay, etc. - in advance of running Dirac, but then not be able to edit them once Dirac-generated filters are 'loaded'? If so, that def sucks, but not as bad as disabling all output settings entirely.

I don't really know anything, just trying to follow the limited breadcrumbs. Even more looking forward to reading th manual than before.

 

[middlemarch]

Dirac ART generates specific filters for all the channels to do its magic. If you then tried to layer more filters on top of those, it would destroy the ART filters and essentially negate the ART corrections. So I fully believe the above statement to the effect post calibration EQ is disabled. That's how it works on the Denon/Marantz platform. Even if you could, it would be strongly discouraged, as I believe is the case with Storm products (but don't have one, so not sure).

 

[Mort]

I would only get the Tide16 if I'm not a gamer and care about the ESS Sabre DAC bragging rights (every locale needs a SINAD champ, am I right?).

SINAD shaming syndrome alert

 

[welwynnick]

Good thread, can't believe I missed it earlier. Unless you're a committed gamer, it's hard not to see the Tide16 cleaning up, but there is an outstanding question.
The StormAudio ISPs use Dirac to take the fight to Trinnov more successfully than Lyngdorf, Datasat or Theta for example, and are a league above the mainstream AVPs.
We don't yet know the DSP power of the Hyperion and miniDSP products. How effective will their IIR and FIR filters be? How will they compare with Marantz and Storm?

 

[EWL5]

SINAD shaming syndrome alert

I prefer YSIABAM or Your SINAD Is As Big As Mine!

 

[PGAMiami]

Dirac ART generates specific filters for all the channels to do its magic. If you then tried to layer more filters on top of those, it would destroy the ART filters and essentially negate the ART corrections. So I fully believe the above statement to the effect post calibration EQ is disabled. That's how it works on the Denon/Marantz platform. Even if you could, it would be strongly discouraged, as I believe is the case with Storm products (but don't have one, so not sure).

Fully agree. Why not just define the target curve that you want in Dirac and be done?

 

[EWL5]

Good thread, can't believe I missed it earlier. Unless you're a committed gamer, it's hard not to see the Tide16 cleaning up, but there is an outstanding question.
The StormAudio ISPs use Dirac to take the fight to Trinnov more successfully than Lyngdorf, Datasat or Theta for example, and are a league above the mainstream AVPs.
We don't yet know the DSP power of the Hyperion and miniDSP products. How effective will their IIR and FIR filters be? How will they compare with Marantz and Storm?

It's got a dedicated Quad Core ARM processor (1.8GHz ) and not the mass market SHARC or TI-developed DSP chips that have well-known limits. The Tide16 should be more powerful and allow miniDSP to change/fix things as needed.

For me, this would be the most attractive feature of the Tide16 if I was considering it.

 

[EWL5]

Fully agree. Why not just define the target curve that you want in Dirac and be done?

Hence the dilemma w/this product: the miniDSP legacy folks will want full DIY capability and the mass market folks (who know Dirac from AVRs) will expect similar limited behavior they're already used to.

Does the ideal Tide16 customer come strictly from the miniDSP camp or mass-market camp? Lots of hedging by miniDSP, it seems...

 

[peng]

As mentioned by others, such as in post#50, it makes sense, but also mentioned on the support community forum that the SHD (and likely the Flex 2ch devices as well) does allow the use of PEQ):

On the SHD one can use PEQ's after Dirac Live, so there is a chance it's similar on the Tide16.

The SHD does not have the ART license, so I would guess the Tide may allow the use of PEQ post DL if ART is not used. It is all speculative, not facts so I asked a more pointed question on the community forum so that if miniDSP answers, all can see it. If not, I will raise a support ticket next week, then for sure they will answer.

I do use the PEQs post DLBC, but a) it's PC standalone version, so naturally more flexible, and b) even if it is the regular version like those for the SHD and Flex, it won't have ART so not really a good comparison/reference. Hopefully, the question will be answered directly from miniDSP soon.

 

[peng]

Lots of hedging by miniDSP, it seems...

Seems like it...

 

[EWL5]

As mentioned by others, such as in post#50, it makes sense, but also mentioned on the support community forum that the SHD (and likely the Flex 2ch devices as well) does allow the use of PEQ):



The SHD does not have the ART license, so I would guess the Tide may allow the use of PEQ post DL if ART is not used. It is all speculative, not facts so I asked a more pointed question on the community forum so that if miniDSP answers, all can see it. If not, I will raise a support ticket next week, then for sure they will answer.

I do use the PEQs post DLBC, but a) it's PC standalone version, so naturally more flexible, and b) even if it is the regular version like those for the SHD and Flex, it won't have ART so not really a good comparison/reference. Hopefully, the question will be answered directly from miniDSP soon.

At least with the AV20, you can fall back to Audyssey RC if you prefer it over Dirac. You're kinda stuck (and paid for) all the licenses up to Dirac ART in the Tide16.

 

[peng]

Fully agree. Why not just define the target curve that you want in Dirac and be done?

That's what I would do too if ART is used, but if not, I would say in some cases, it is quicker to do fine tuning using the PEQ features post calibration. For example, if there is for some reason, a couple bumps remained in the very audible range, a couple of PEQs might bring it down without playing with the target curve that would involve a little more work. Again, in general, I would just play with the target curve. If ART is used, I would most likely not mess around with PEQ/BIQUAD even if miniDSP makes it possible, and as ban25 seems so sure, miniDSP might just lock it (the PEQ feature) out and he is likely correct on that, except I still see no good reason for that if ART is not used.

 

[Chromatischism]

Also, my video is on an 83” Samsung OLED with Xifinity and AppleTV as the only sources. So not much to gain from full HDMI 2.1. I do greatly value CEC volume, power and input swriching. Also Roon and very occasionally Nvidia Shield for immersive HD music. No use for AoiP. Prioritize best possible sound quality for stereo.

Auro-3D is dead, dynamic eq you would not need

My needs are similar to the OP, and I need and enjoy dynamic EQ and Auromatic 3D.

 

[EWL5]

This does not make sense at all, Tide16 is full fledged AVP. Auro-3D is dead, dynamic eq you would not need and having no alternative rc besides dirac as critique is completely ridiculous, etc. Nothing to do at all with diy (post calibration dirac manipulation I would call diy). As I started with, the above makes no sense at all.

How do you know what we need?

 

[peng]

At least with the AV20, you can fall back to Audyssey RC if you prefer it over Dirac. You're kinda stuck (and paid for) all the licenses up to Dirac ART in the Tide16.

True, but in Canada, the AV20 costs $3,000 more and that's without any Dirac Licenses. I think miniDSP must have gotten a great deal from DL, so good that they felt there's no point making it a paid option like they did with their devices.

 

[EWL5]

True, but in Canada, the AV20 costs $3,000 more and that's without any Dirac Licenses. I think miniDSP must have gotten a great deal from DL, so good that they felt there's no point making it a paid option like they did with their devices.

It's quite an effort and cost to R&D an in-house RC. I think choosing an industry-accepted RC like Dirac was the right business move. Only time will tell if ART is enough of an attraction to create demand for their first AVP. Based on the confusion in this and other similar threads, I think the outcome could go either way (especially w/the current conflict tanking the market and less than rosy US job report).