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Auro-3D, Dolby Atmos TrueHD, Quadraphonic et cetĕra

Fn+Delete works just fine. Didn’t use this in a decade or so ;)
:) I am writing a convolution engine recently and as a dedicated Windows user since 90s, I will have to agree Mac OS (and Linux of course as both are Unix based) is orders of magnitude easier to deal with and cleaner for audio. Windows audio kernel is a joke, you need a security approval from Microsoft (expensive) to even use its API only to end up with not working drivers in the next Windows update.
 
Sure. And some of those preferences are based on audible differences, and some are not. Does that matter to you?
Some do, others don't. What I know from my education, knowledge, and practical experience in research and development is important to me, but I'm not trying to convince anyone otherwise.
 
That does not seem to be an ASIO driver feature. Can you elaborate on what exactly this is?
The ASIO driver, which complies with the Steinberg specification, allows you to control some functionality of both the driver and the DAC.
Sorry, but I won't share any code or details here. Only the general principles and functionality.
 
The ASIO driver, which complies with the Steinberg specification, allows you to control some functionality of both the driver and the DAC.
No. ASIO lets you pick sample rate and clock source, not control the clock itself.

There is no standard API for fine-grained trim, drift correction, or “flow control.”

If you’re using some custom extension to do, device support for this will be limited.
 
When I created this thread, I was hoping for some advice, suggestions, and just a few kind words of support. And I was surprised to see the skeptical and even negative reactions.
I'm trying something new, and I wanted to share my successes and mistakes, but now I'm not sure if anyone wants that here.
Fair enough. I would want all of the following in your product.

1. A master clock to override the clock(s) on my USB Dacs.
2. Routing. I would want to assign specific channels to specific DACS
3. The capability of using multi channel Dacs in conjunction with two channel DACS. One of my DACS is a Octo DAC 8 pro with, obviously 8 channels, I would want to route eight channels to it, and other channels to a separate discrete dac (s).
4. The capability of using more than 8 channels. Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro 3D come in layout of up to 24 channels, I would want your software to be able to support at least 12 channels (a 7.1.4 layout).
5. The Driver needs to output to USB, and since we're talking multiple dacs, it would need to output certain channels to one usb outlet and others to a different output, and do it in LPCM, of course.
6. The capability of accepting JRiver output via either WDM or an Asio Sink Driver
7. Would be nice if it had a master volume control.
8. Cost: Should not cost more than $200-300 at most.
9. Should operate smoothly and not tax the processing resources of even the most basic machines--and, most especially, should not add a significant amount of latency.

Ultimately, this is basically doing for Windows what Apple does on MACS in terms of aggregating output devices. Shame on the Windows developers for not including it, but it obviously does create a niche for you if you can thread this needle.
 
No. ASIO lets you pick sample rate and clock source, not control the clock itself.

There is no standard API for fine-grained trim, drift correction, or “flow control.”

If you’re using some custom extension to do, device support for this will be limited.
Only original drivers from manufacturers with signatures, certificates, and standard installation. It's crucial for me that my applications run smoothly, always and everywhere. I use only native Windows commands and assembler. I don't even use DirectX or the .NET Framework.
 
Only original drivers from manufacturers with signatures, certificates, and standard installation. It's crucial for me that my applications run smoothly, always and everywhere. I use only native Windows commands and assembler. I don't even use DirectX or the .NET Framework.
Again: ASIO does not offer what you claim.
 
There are just no such drivers. Most DAC manufacturers order standart driver versions from Thesycon Software. I wrote to several well-known DAC manufacturers asking if their ASIO drivers support connecting more than one DAC. Everyone who responded said no. One driver = one DAC.
I know but that is the real issue, not hardware.
Name a modern multi-channel DAC that supports Native DSD mode via the ASIO driver, with support for DSD512 and DSD1024. Preferably at a reasonable price and not a custom order. Please.
I don't know of any such DACs.
Well, exaSound and Merging will support sample rates up to 352.8 kHz (DXD) and 384 kHz as well as bitstream up to DSD256. The Okto DAC8 Pro comes close. Higher sampling rates have no significant repertoire support nor any proven audible value.

All that aside, I am curious what you come up with.
 
Well, exaSound and Merging will support sample rates up to 352.8 kHz (DXD) and 384 kHz as well as bitstream up to DSD256.

Fair enough. I would want all of the following in your product.

1. A master clock to override the clock(s) on my USB Dacs.
2. Routing. I would want to assign specific channels to specific DACS
3. The capability of using multi channel Dacs in conjunction with two channel DACS. One of my DACS is a Octo DAC 8 pro with, obviously 8 channels, I would want to route eight channels to it, and other channels to a separate discrete dac (s).
4. The capability of using more than 8 channels. Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro 3D come in layout of up to 24 channels, I would want your software to be able to support at least 12 channels (a 7.1.4 layout).
5. The Driver needs to output to USB, and since we're talking multiple dacs, it would need to output certain channels to one usb outlet and others to a different output, and do it in LPCM, of course.
6. The capability of accepting JRiver output via either WDM or an Asio Sink Driver
7. Would be nice if it had a master volume control.
8. Cost: Should not cost more than $200-300 at most.
9. Should operate smoothly and not tax the processing resources of even the most basic machines--and, most especially, should not add a significant amount of latency.

Ultimately, this is basically doing for Windows what Apple does on MACS in terms of aggregating output devices. Shame on the Windows developers for not including it, but it obviously does create a niche for you if you can thread this needle.
Thank you! Interesting list. But I'm afraid this is team work, while for me it's just a hobby. Nevertheless, I'll answer point by point:
1. Without physically opening all the DACs, master clocking is impossible. But I can sync them programmatically from the player. However, I haven't yet tested this algorithm on low-sample-rate streams.
2. This is natural. However, there's a caveat. In the very first post in this thread, I wrote that the original multichannel file should be split into stereo pairs. My player's core is written in assembler; it took me a long time to create it, and it was originally designed only for stereo.
3. Only two-channel DACs.
4. Any number of channels.
5. USB and PCM - yes, regarding channel distribution in point 2.
6. WDM or an Asio Sink Driver - I'm not sure I can sync the DACs through them.
7. It's possible.
8. Money is not the most important thing in life.
9. The more channels and the higher the sampling rate, the greater the load, which is natural. And in any case, a lot of memory is needed.
 
I don't want to and won't argue. But can you at least agree that different people can have different preferences when it comes to formats, components, music...?
Absolutely yes - everybody has preferences, and they are valid of course. Who am I to tell someone what he prefers? The point though is that a preference should be based on real audible differences, not on biased ones (that is non existent).
 
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When I created this thread, I was hoping for some advice, suggestions, and just a few kind words of support. And I was surprised to see the skeptical and even negative reactions.
I'm trying something new, and I wanted to share my successes and mistakes, but now I'm not sure if anyone wants that here.
I think most skeptics here (including me) see a part of your project as a solution to a problem which doesn't exist in the first place (regarding the topic of DSD vs. PCM). This is AudioScienceReview and 80+ years of scientific research have shown beyond doubt that non controlled listening tests are no valid proof for any claim. Yes, for the people taking these tests the differences are audible beyond doubt, but for other reasons than they think.

I failed twice in tests where I heard big differences which actually did not exist. You have to do this yourself to believe it - it is a humbling but really eye opening experience.
 
Do you think they're crazy? But the sound really does get significantly better, more natural. I was amazed when I first heard it.
You cannot get something better than what it already is; especially in the digital audio domain - you cannot create something out of thin air if it is not already there...
Be careful here with your statements (or lack of). If somebody asks you technical details and concrete answers here, you better give them, and not mess around with something like "ask an AI, it will explain better than I can"... This kind of s**t is not your best option in the whereabouts of a technical and analytical site.

HTH
 
Only original drivers from manufacturers with signatures, certificates, and standard installation. It's crucial for me that my applications run smoothly, always and everywhere. I use only native Windows commands and assembler. I don't even use DirectX or the .NET Framework.
If you use only Windows native commands you are already on the wrong path. Good to hear, though, that you do not use neither DirectX, nor .NET (who in hell would ever use .NET for real-time audio processing will remain a mystery to me)
Smells like trolling here... too vague, too generic... IMHO not even an AI can be so blablabla...
 
I think most skeptics here (including me) see a part of your project as a solution to a problem which doesn't exist in the first place (regarding the topic of DSD vs. PCM). This is AudioScienceReview and 80+ years of scientific research have shown beyond doubt that non controlled listening tests are no valid proof for any claim. Yes, for the people taking these tests the differences are audible beyond doubt, but for other reasons than they think.

I failed twice in tests where I heard big differences which actually did not exist. You have to do this yourself to believe it - it is a humbling but really eye opening experience.
I think you've somewhat misunderstood the project's essence. It treats PCM and DSD formats as equal. When outputting via WASAPI, PCM is even preferable.

As for objective comparative tests, I've not only conducted them, but also organized them. I've also created about a dozen apps for independent testing and debunking some of the most odious misconceptions, for example:
- AIFF sounds better than WAV
- WAV is better than FLAC
- there's no audible difference between CD and Hi-Res
etc.

As a mathematician, physicist, electronics engineer, and programmer, I understand the nature of the sound differences between different formats. However, creating an app for objective independent comparison between PCM and DSD is hardly possible, since most DACs make a clicking sound when switching between PCM/DSD modes. Signal levels can also vary depending on the DAC model.

By the way, the DSD format is not always better than PCM, for example, I will always prefer PCM 24/96 to DSD64

When I have more free time, I will make a topic on this topic, but for now I humbly ask you to avoid off-topic.
 
Ah, yes, I wanted to get back to this:
As for the issues of jitter and delta-sigma DACs, there have been so many articles, studies, and discussions on these issues in the last decade that I thought everyone already knew everything.
Ask an AI about it; it will explain it better than I can :)
Guess what, I did ask ChatGPT. Gave the above quote and asked:
Please explain the audibility of whatever he might be talking about

Markdown (GitHub flavored):
He’s mixing two things that often get bundled together in audiophile discussions:

---

## 1. **Jitter**
Timing variation of the sampling clock.

### What it actually does
- Moves sample moments slightly in time
- In extreme cases → creates **phase noise / distortion sidebands**

### In modern DACs
- USB async + internal PLL + buffering
- Jitter from the source is largely **rejected**

### Audibility (realistic numbers)
- You need **very high jitter** (or very specific correlated jitter)
- Typical modern DACs: **orders of magnitude below audibility**

Practical reality:
 If you can hear jitter in a modern setup, something is seriously broken

---

## 2. **Delta-Sigma DACs**
Almost all modern DACs are delta-sigma.

### What they do
- Convert audio to a **high-rate 1-bit / few-bit stream**
- Push quantization noise **out of band**
- Then filter it out

### Common audiophile claims
- “Noise shaping affects sound”
- “DSD is more natural”
- “High sample rates reduce distortion”

### Reality
Within normal operating conditions:
- In-band distortion/noise is **extremely low**
- Differences between competent DACs are **tiny to nonexistent**

---

## Where the confusion comes from

### 1. Old problems that are now solved
- Early DACs → jitter mattered more
- Early filters → audible artifacts

People keep repeating outdated conclusions.

---

### 2. Misinterpreting measurements
- Seeing noise shaping → assuming audible impact
- Seeing jitter plots → assuming audibility

Without relating it to thresholds.

---

### 3. Sighted listening bias
No blind testing → everything “sounds different”

---

## The key point

Both topics are **real engineering concerns**, but:

 In modern, competent DACs:
- jitter is **effectively irrelevant**
- delta-sigma behavior is **well below audibility**

---

## What he’s *likely implying*
Something like:
- jitter differences between transports matter
- DSD / high sample rates sound better due to DAC behavior

Which sounds technical, but:
 collapses under controlled testing

---

## If you want a one-liner back

**“Yes, and all those studies also show it’s below audibility in any normal DAC.”**

So, this is what you get if you instruct your AI not to regurgitate the commonly found audiophile nonsense, but look at the facts and evidence objectively.

I also had it to go through the latest ASIO specs and docs, and it concluded that there is nothing at all in the standard to micro-adjust the clocks between multiple devices. The best it can do is give you some timing info that can help you infer the clock drift between devices.

I was hoping for some advice, suggestions, and just a few kind words of support. And I was surprised to see the skeptical and even negative reactions.
Well yeah. This is audiosciencereview. If you make some claims, we generally expect you to back them up with something tangible. Then you want advice and suggestions, but are not willing to share anything of substance once again. That is not how a discussion is supposed to work. If there is no substance, there is nothing to suggest or give advice on.
 
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Well yeah. This is audiosciencereview. If you make some claims, we generally expect you to back them up with something tangible. Then you want advice and suggestions, but are not willing to share anything of substance once again. That is not how a discussion is supposed to work. If there is no substance, there is nothing to suggest or give advice on.
But I don't need advice or explanations on programming or physics.
What phoenixdogfan wrote is what's useful to me.
 
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