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Audyssey Room EQ Review

bjmsam

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Can you describe your methodology?

If your above measurements are what I assume them to be - single point, but with the microphone kept in the same place - it's hard to do aside from make a few relative comparisons. Still, under my assumption re methodology it's clear you're right that Audyssey's "Reference" target curve introduced a midrange dip beyond what your speakers ordinarily have. I also have some concern this Audyssey target curve generally may be hazardous for your tweeters or your amp. I would use the iOS app (or MultEQ X) to pull the target curve down to follow the speakers' natural response from 3kHz up.
Yes. Below is a more complete picture with exaggerated Y axis (30dB) to accentuate differences between FLAT and REF for all DEQ offsets. Each trace is an RMS average of sweep measurements taken at five positions within the MLP using the Audyssey microphone (rather than my UMIK-1 in order to mirror Audyssey input). The MR"C" introduced by REF between 1kHz and 3kHz is obvious. I agree that the target curves with DEQ off (shown in my previous graph and differentiated with brighter colors below) are undesirable; my Denon AVR-X4000 has only XT32 so I lack the control offered by MultiEQ X but am happy with FLAT DEQ 10 (roughly +5dB at 20Hz to -5dB at 20kHz).

AM-JKLWqsTJ9exlhMNPvFmyly885cxiKsKz9AFgJi7AY_0GbJl-342ZrZsIwU7jhsVySHGopsb8szVvfSpA41KXTdvsnxNIg81eSYB_GE15y8dye_4j6Lkmpb0Msc58AssqqOcGXljhTNgiDktkP7GQVJzwsCA=w1024-h652-no
 

Reverend Slim

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I agree that the target curves with DEQ off (shown in my previous graph and differentiated with brighter colors below) are undesirable; my Denon AVR-X4000 has only XT32 so I lack the control offered by MultiEQ X but am happy with FLAT DEQ 10 (roughly +5dB at 20Hz to -5dB at 20kHz).
It's a shame that your AVR-X4000 isn't supported for at least the phone app. I think you would probably be happier with a tilt or your own house curve than the sliding scale DEQ is. Personally, given the wide variance in levels between sources lately, a volume-dependent system like DEQ becomes too much of a moving target for me.

Not to mention that the coarse boosts it does to surrounds makes it useless in an Atmos layout, but... I digress.
 

bjmsam

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The extra control would be nice, but it's pretty close to what I want (more room treatment required for 200Hz-400Hz).

AM-JKLWNMJWYedKoJ4-07Zkx0GVd7GnphqaacWr4fG5N7kywx9TivB3WS10gU9kjTAsjiHj2Xst-Olm7bgdwwPzC2YmLzUX-8yBNifn7bk7zCaLi-rYw708wsEP5AXX8l4IC3if51e3PH31MfxQ3IDY1TnCuow=w1024-h727-no
 

peng

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It's a shame that your AVR-X4000 isn't supported for at least the phone app. I think you would probably be happier with a tilt or your own house curve than the sliding scale DEQ is. Personally, given the wide variance in levels between sources lately, a volume-dependent system like DEQ becomes too much of a moving target for me.

Do you mean using your own house curve with a tilt and not use DEQ? If so, don't you have to use different house curve for different master volume and/or sources?
 
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peng

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There's a lot of projection there. Still, I see in subsequent posts you've finally decided to accept reality. That doesn't excuse your needlessly hostile tone in your replies to me, but whatever.

I overreacted, but there is no excuse. Sorry about that..
 

Reverend Slim

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Do you mean using your won house curve with a tilt and not use DEQ? If so, don't you have to use different house curve for different master volume and/or sources?
Most people tend to find a general house curve that works across their usual listening ranges and most content, which takes the sliding scale out of the equation (and maintains consistent level matching). I like what DEQ aims to do IN THEORY... but it is dependent upon sources being mastered to a known reference. Movie mixes were more consistently done so back in the 5.1/7.1 days, but lately, they're all over the map (especially when comparing physical discs to streaming).

Consider bjmsam's preferred curve using DEQ with the 10dB offset. Assuming he measured that response at his normal preferred listening level, then any movie mastered to reference such that he doesn't have to change master volume would play back with that response curve applied. But what if it's say... a Disney title that is -8dB down from other titles? He then has to boost master volume by 8dB to reach his typical listening level, which flattens out the curve he observed at his normal level. In fact, with the 10dB offset, if he turns master volume to -10dB relative, that curve he likes is completely gone for any MV at and above that (which is what the offset defines).

The other issue is that in addition to the frequency shaping DEQ does, it does coarse boosts to the levels of the surrounds by shifting the entire inverse filter (because it doesn't have direct control over your channel trims). Now, back when Audyssey created DEQ, this made sense because it was in a 5.1/7.1 context. You might want the surrounds to be slightly boosted as you get lower than reference. However, if you have an Atmos/DTS:X setup, what DEQ ends up doing by altering the surround levels this way is shifting imaging from where the respective renderers are attempting to place objects. From measurements I've seen, DEQ applies that boost to side/rear surrounds AND rear heights... but not front heights. The problem here is say, for instance, you have an object placed between the heights in a x.x.4 layout. If the levels are matched and the Atmos renderer does its thing by steering the sound 50/50 between the two height rows, it should image directly above you. But if DEQ is engaged and you're below 0db MV (or -10db MV if still using the 10dB offset setting), your rear heights might be getting a 1-2dB coarse level boost, essentially dragging the image further back than the renderer meant it to be placed. Many Atmos titles (unfortunately) use 2 static objects at the top mid location with some pre-panning applied rather than dynamic objects that move throughout the layout, so in this case, DEQ would be shifting those static objects behind the listener due to the level change. Likewise, if you had an object placed at ear level in the front wide position in a 7.1.x layout, the boost DEQ does to the side surrounds would shift the intended image back toward the side surround instead of imaging it at the correct location in your room.

I've argued for a while now that if Audyssey would separate the surround presence boost from the loudness element of DEQ, it would make it more useful with the immersive audio formats. But as it is, I think you're better off turning DEQ off altogether and just implementing your own compromise house curve/tilt that gives you good results across the range of your usual listening levels. DEQ makes everything like hitting a moving target on top of a train with the shooter in a helicopter. I've even seen people argue for trying to change the surround and rear height levels to mitigate those changes somewhat, but that just introduces more unpredictability if you have to change master volume to suit the level of content.
 

bjmsam

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Consider bjmsam's preferred curve using DEQ with the 10dB offset. Assuming he measured that response at his normal preferred listening level, then any movie mastered to reference such that he doesn't have to change master volume would play back with that response curve applied. But what if it's say... a Disney title that is -8dB down from other titles? He then has to boost master volume by 8dB to reach his typical listening level, which flattens out the curve he observed at his normal level. In fact, with the 10dB offset, if he turns master volume to -10dB relative, that curve he likes is completely gone for any MV at and above that (which is what the offset defines).
My AVR volume was set to -25dB for the measurements I posted. It typically is between -10dB and -16dB for movies (depending on title and audience) and as low as -40dB for other listening (background). With AUD FLAT DEQ 10, the sound is terrific throughout that range.
 

Reverend Slim

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My AVR volume was set to -25dB for the measurements I posted. It typically is between -10dB and -16dB for movies (depending on title and audience) and as low as -40dB for other listening (background). With AUD FLAT DEQ 10, the sound is terrific throughout that range.
Understood. Was just making it clear that at -10dB, you aren't getting that same response, as at that level with that offset, it will be completely flat as if DEQ was off.
 

krabapple

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It's not a BBC dip. It's a dip in the sound power at the crossover.

I would say more precisely, it's a dip at 2 kHz, which Audyssey (the company) assumes is the crossover, because it's a common crossover frequency. It certainly isn't universal in non-coaxials.
 

Chromatischism

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It's a shame that your AVR-X4000 isn't supported for at least the phone app. I think you would probably be happier with a tilt or your own house curve than the sliding scale DEQ is. Personally, given the wide variance in levels between sources lately, a volume-dependent system like DEQ becomes too much of a moving target for me.

Not to mention that the coarse boosts it does to surrounds makes it useless in an Atmos layout, but... I digress.
I see this a lot, and it's a problem, but it's a great exaggeration to say that it makes it useless. I use it to great effect.

Audyssey needs to do more to educate the user however on what exactly their system is doing so if corrective steps are needed, they can take them.
 

Chromatischism

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I would say more precisely, it's a dip at 2 kHz, which Audyssey (the company) assumes is the crossover, because it's a common crossover frequency. It certainly isn't universal in non-coaxials.
I'm saying the BBC dip is not the same as the speaker effect Audyssey is accounting for.
 

Reverend Slim

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I see this a lot, and it's a problem, but it's a great exaggeration to say that it makes it useless. I use it to great effect.

Audyssey needs to do more to educate the user however on what exactly their system is doing so if corrective steps are needed, they can take them.
For purposes of accurate reproduction, I still maintain that it does make it pretty useless. I understand that you do whatever "corrective steps" you think address the issue (though you would have to have a chart to offset channel trims as you change MV to actually address it accurately to within 0.5dB), but... if there were a system that made changes in level to the left main as you changed MV when listening in stereo, I would hazard that pretty much everyone would turn that off. Same problem here, but between multiple speakers in the array. Much easier if Audyssey would just split the two functions. The research used to create the surround presence function of DEQ pre-dates Atmos. But to anyone who wants to use it, godspeed.
That is how it's supposed to work...human hearing is not linear with SPL, so our reproduction systems should not be either.
Yeah, I know. My point was just because he's measuring that preferred response at at -25dB MV with DEQ offset 10, that doesn't mean he's necessarily getting that preferred response at any given listening level with any given source. It's a moving target at that point, which the DEQ offset was intended to help adjust around.
 
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Chromatischism

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That's why you always dial in sub levels in the middle of your normal listening level. For me that means I do my listening and testing (and measuring) at -20, so whether it's a movie at -15 or music at -25, I'm right in the ballpark and DEQ compensates perfectly.
 

krabapple

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I see this a lot, and it's a problem, but it's a great exaggeration to say that it makes it useless. I use it to great effect.

Audyssey needs to do more to educate the user however on what exactly their system is doing so if corrective steps are needed, they can take them.

Agreed. I have the X4000 and the X3300W, the latter can use the app and the former can't . .Boh are MultiXt32 The audible results are good with both. My speakers are Behringer 2030P.
 

amansangar

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Hi all would you recommend to copy amir’s target curve? I’ve limited my speakers to 300hz and taken out the dip as I’ve seen most people recommend it. Also what should I do about Dynamic EQ? I do use dynamic volume during night listening so I don’t have to crank up the volume.
 

nathan

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The target curve is a fine choice.

Arguably some of what the target curve does in the bass (make it rise) is ALSO done via dynamic EQ which tries to make the bass sound as prominent at lower volumes as it does at "reference" (0 on the scale) volume.

So maybe try one at a time and them together and see what you like.
 

Chromatischism

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Hi all would you recommend to copy amir’s target curve? I’ve limited my speakers to 300hz and taken out the dip as I’ve seen most people recommend it. Also what should I do about Dynamic EQ? I do use dynamic volume during night listening so I don’t have to crank up the volume.
Midrange Compensation should be used if your speakers are non-coaxial and have a crossover around 2 kHz. Still, test both ways.

As far as the house curve, you can try but not many have succeeded in improving on the curve created by Dynamic EQ via the program.
 
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