The spaz jet is being used by ACDC at the moment John, axl loves it.Ah, come on guys, you can have a whip around & do better than that, surely
It's hunt the change, down the back of the sofa time!
The spaz jet is being used by ACDC at the moment John, axl loves it.Ah, come on guys, you can have a whip around & do better than that, surely
Ah, sweet, I didn't know you cared in that way, TomWell John Only one question remains...,
Well, Tim, you have taken the listener out of your description & if the listener has a way of analysis (ASA) that is not yet understood & far more sophisticated than current measurements, how do you know what aspects of the signal & correlations between aspects of the signal are of importance? In other words, the current set of measurements are restricted to simplistic signal analysis & yet ASA is a very sophisticated signal analysis.
Whatever it takes Thomas, well worth the cost.Can you stretch to a taxi(cab) or are we putting John on public transport?
It's an unfortunate fact that almost all of us judge the result of that goal by listening to it & not by reading measurements. Maybe you're different, Tim but last time I checked you still listen to music playback as do the rest of us who are engaged in this hobby. If the hobby was who can build the best measuring device then your point would be valid but we are left to the vagaries of our auditory perception & it can only benefit us to better understand how this perception works.No, I've taken perception out of the analysis because audio equipment, with the exception of some processors which have been mostly rejected by audiophiles, isn't designed to impact perception, it is designed to reproduce the recording as close as possible, so our perceptions of playback will be as close as possible to the things that were recored.
Aha! You get some of the concept then, Tim, - the whole audio reproduction chain is an attempt at creating an illusion which is believable to the LISTENER & this is where auditory perception comes into it, TimWhat you're driving at over here is not totally off the wall. After all, stereo itself relies on manipulation of perceptions.
Maybe or maybe a better understanding of exactly what our auditory perception considers important to realism will help to produce a more believable playback?Someday some brilliant audio scientist may come up with a whole new recording and reproduction system based on these theories, or maybe even invent a processor that works much better than, oh I dunno...the Aphex Aural Exciter...? That will be really interesting when it happens.
Well, forgive me for reminding people who cynically dismiss audio devices that there may actually be something of perceptual value in these devicesIn the meantime, I don't think it's accurate to characterize disinterest in this subject as anything more than what it is: People gravitating toward discussion that is relevant to audio reproduction as it exists today.
Tim
Well, forgive me for reminding people who cynically dismiss audio devices that there may actually be something of perceptual value in these devices
You can have the last word, TimSomeone is cynically dismissing audio devices? I thought this was about ASA and didn't realize it had even been related to any audio devices.
Tim
Hello, Frantz ... the work of Bregman has kicked off an enormous amount of research into the concepts he espoused, but I doubt AES mentions it at all - it has all happened in neuroscience, psychophysics. It was a revelation to me, because it explained the seemingly bizarre behaviour of audio suddenly snapping into a higher level of perceived quality when the level of audible artifacts dropped below a certain point. This was something that had intrigued me for decades, I knew that it happened but I didn't know why, from the POV of how my head worked.Hello John
Any peer reviews? Any AES references to the works of Bergman? Some metrics, measurements? Anything more substantive?
... too many artifacts disrupt the interpretation of what is being heard. ... Therefore, the aim of the audio system should be to prevent MMNs happening ...
You can have the last word, Tim
Not in my experience. Just two examples I have had to deal with with is the impact of poor connections in the system, and various interference mechanisms. I have not seen any research quantifying these factors, yet IME these are crucial, must be dealt with - I don't hear these artifacts directly, what I hear is sound that is "not right" - I'm aware of the impact indirectly.... and we can already measure the effectiveness of any attempts to reduce the artifacts ("MMNs"). We don't have to listen. What does need further research is the effect on ASA of the common artifacts. For example, we can quantify a change in noise level caused by a reproduction system, but we need to do more to quantify its effect on ASA. Most of the work to date has been on quantifying the audibility of various artifacts - for example, the audibility of signal-related noise modulation in the presence of masking.
Another interesting resource on ASA, and other sound perception matters: http://home.ieis.tue.nl/dhermes/lectures/soundperception/07ASA1.html. Has a nice summary of Bregman's concepts, and points to related areas of research, etc.
Because the intent of the lectures is to deal withThis lecture series aims at discussing the problems which underlie these issues, and to explore some ways where we can find a solution to these problems. The emphasis is on the perception and the design of non-speech and non-music sounds. The synthesis of musical sounds and speech sounds is widely dealt with elsewhere, and the state of the art in these research fields can be found in many good textbooks.
What does any of this have to with audiophile massive self delusion and high susceptibility to suggestion?
In this lecture series we will discuss various fundamental and applied issues which arise in designing the sounds for complex systems and for virtual environments. These issues arise from the observation that in most computer-controlled systems the use of sound is either limited to short attention signals consisting merely of simple tone beeps, or is completely absent
That's an understandable response to the common ways in which acoustic absorption (particularly) is misapplied. It has taken a few decades for recording studio control rooms (used for mixing and mastering) to develop better criteria for choosing a room, and smoothing its response, such as contained in:I have been in listening rooms that were very heavily treated, and I found them disturbing, unsettling - I could not enjoy listening to music in that type of space.