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AudioQuest Wind High-end Cable Review

Phorize

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How does the country of origin or price affect capacitance?

Since the "dielectric bias system" is based on exactly zero actual physical or material principles, and is presented without ANY supporting evidence, the only way to "find out" is to understand the marketing.
I think the poster was erroneously saying that being of that country of origin aggravated the cheapness of the product. Fortunately it’s not a view we come across often on ASR, mainly because of the educated nature of the participants and the freaking outstanding quality of a lot of Chinese manufactured audio equipment. As a fairly patriotic British person I would take a ‘cheap‘ Topping product over the overpriced and antiquated tosh that companies like Sugden push out any day of the week.
 

SIY

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I'm just showing a way to make the review more complete. Cable capacitance is important for some audio sources. Do you understand that?

I understand the effects of capacitance in the MM/MI niche. I am astonished by the claim that this is somehow affected by country of origin. And by anyone thinking that the dielectric biasing nonsense has anything whatsoever to do with an interconnect's performance.
 

GuidoK

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I am astonished by the claim that this is somehow affected by country of origin.
I did not claim that. Stop putting words in my mouth. Thats a really low way to go about in a discussion.:mad:
You are deliberately mixing a description of a product with the properties of a product.
Do you enjoy being a jerk?

And by anyone thinking that the dielectric biasing nonsense has anything whatsoever to do with an interconnect's performance.
Again, I'm not thinking that. I'm saying that it hasn't been investigated to a certain extend (namely on the 3 base electrical parameters). There is a difference between those two.
 
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zoran-grbic

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SIY

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I did not claim that. Stop putting words in my mouth.

"A cheap chinese interlink with high capacitance can cause effects in the frequency plot as low as 7khz, and in phase shift even lower."

I'm saying that it hasn't been investigated to a certain extend (namely on the 3 base electrical parameters). There is a difference between those two.

There's nothing to investigate. If you want to waste your time chasing down fairies in the garden, go ahead. No-one with even rudimentary knowledge of how dielectrics and wires function would bother, the claim is ridiculously stupid.
 

solderdude

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You can see there are a lot of parameters that effectively did not get tested!
As long as the the DAC output impedance (Ris_low) is Close to zero the cable capacitance and Leakage did not change anything at all!
As long as the the ADC input impedance is high (megaohms) the cable series impedance has no effect
As long as the Ground loop current and voltage is Zero the shield resistance and inductance (impedance) has no effect.
As long as there is no RF and nothing to measure it the shielding effectiveness is not tested.

As you can see lots of key parameters did not get tested directly.
In real application source impedance is not zero, input impedance is not infinite, ground current as well as RF might be present and the input might not be immune to RF.

All kind of valid points seen from a science viewpoint.
On the other hand.
The measurements Amir did were comparisons between 2 cables.
They were measured on the AP which has:
An output impedance NOT close to 0, An input impedance not in the M Ohms.
Indeed there was no RF induced (injection clamp for instance) but magnetic fields kind of were (no specified magnetic field strength though).
And indeed no groundloop was tested but whether or not a shield is close to 0 Ohm or a few Ohm this does not matter for a groundloop.
Groundloop source resistances are usually between 50 and 100 Ohm.
Yes, more tests could be done IF Amir had the specific test equipment, the time and special fixtures, grounded tables and (RF) shielded anechoic room with transmitters and antennae.

But would that be more conclusive than a test in 'normal' household conditions as interlink between line level equipment.

It is so easy to comment on other peoples measurements. I am still waiting for someone that not merely comments on what is wrong or incomplete but comes with their own and 'more complete' measurements showing that the performed measurements were too incomplete and shows without a doubt that this or that cable is audible superior based on his/hers measurements.
 
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GuidoK

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"A cheap chinese interlink with high capacitance can cause effects in the frequency plot as low as 7khz, and in phase shift even lower."
Yes I know what I wrote.
Where did I say that the high capacitance is caused by it being made in china or that it's caused by the low price?
Again, you're mixing a description with properties.
There's nothing to investigate. If you want to waste your time chasing down fairies in the garden, go ahead. No-one with even rudimentary knowledge of how dielectrics and wires function would bother, the claim is ridiculously stupid.
That's your opinion. But then why was the cable reviewed here in the first place?
Also, what you say about "with even rudimentary knowledge of how dielectrics and wires function would bother," is called a fallacy (argumentum ad passiones). Not a very civilized way to go about imho and a failure in logic reasoning.
 
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Phorize

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I understand the effects of capacitance in the MM/MI niche. I am astonished by the claim that this is somehow affected by country of origin. And by anyone thinking that the dielectric biasing nonsense has anything whatsoever to do with an interconnect's performance.
I did not claim that. Stop putting words in my mouth. Thats a really low way to go about in a discussion.:mad:
You are deliberately mixing a description of a product with the properties of a product.
Do you enjoy being a jerk?


Again, I'm not thinking that. I'm saying that it hasn't been investigated to a certain extend (namely on the 3 base electrical parameters). There is a difference between those two.

I can’t see a reading of your post that doesn’t frame Chinese origin as an aggravating factor of cheapness. That’s what’s caused offence.
 

Killingbeans

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Well with this assumption every wet string and rusty paperclip is a good cable.

I'd wager that under most circumstances, that's pretty close to the truth. More importantly, it doesn't take a huge amounts of engineering skill to take the concept of a rusty paperclip and add the elements that gives you a close to ideal RCA cable, at least for all practical purposes.

I'm only saying that this review isnt complete imho without regarding R,C,L
As you can see lots of key parameters did not get tested directly.

Those simple parameters should, if they were extraordinairely well behaved, be an integral part of the AudioQuest marketing, and they should be shown to have a measurable effect in common situations. But instead we get pseudoscience nonsense and vague graphical representations.

I admit that it would be fun to see Amir do AudioQuest's job for them, but saying that his review is faulty because he doesn't, is far-fetched IMO.

He has a different focus, that is all. One that is still plenty good at exposing these products as bogus, and establishing that they do NOT deserve any benefit of the doubt.
 

Angsty

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Of course the susceptibility to mains hum of this cable makes it not very suitable for a phono interlink in the beginning as signal strenght is up to ~-65dB compared to line level signals.
That nails it. The effect of capacitance in relation to the comparison cable is negligible versus the noise issues.

No attempt is needed to justify any aspect of the Audioquest’s cost or performance. It’s pseudoscience junk sold to people with more money than expertise.
 

Phorize

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Anyway, we’ve been asked to keep review threads clear of this sort of thing. So I’m out.
 

BDWoody

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But then why was the cable reviewed here in the first place?

To try to keep others from wasting their money chasing misleading pseudo-science.
 

Lambda

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An output impedance NOT close to 0, An input impedance not in the M Ohms.
AP and REM? and there output impedance is certainly way lower and more restive than say a phono cartridge or a transformer.

Indeed there was no RF induced (LISN for instance) but magnetic fields kind of were (no specified magnetic field strength though).
Yeah undefined and only at one Frequency.

And indeed no groundloop was tested but whether or not a shield is close to 0 Ohm or a few Ohm this does not matter for a groundloop.
Groundloop source resistances are usually between 50 and 100 Ohm.
Don't know how you come up with this numbers! Groundloop source Impedance can be verry low in same order of magnitude as shield Impedance
(They can be heavenly frequency dependent that's why i'm emphasizing Impedance)

grounded tables and (RF) shielded anechoic room with transmitters and antennae.
Don't be silly, you maybe need this if you want to make some sort of calibrated absolute measurements.

It is also totally OK not to measure every Aspect! its an Awesome measurement and i doughnut nothing of it.
I'm super tankful for amirm service to this community!

But awareness of the limitations of the measurements methods and the drawable conclusion is very important if you want to have a scientific discussion.
Because showing some measurements and then drawing conclusion that are not backed by the data is how a big part Esoteri audiophile marketing works.
(not saying amirm himself is doing so)
Right now we have lots of people in the forum an and on youtube running around like this.
While the data only backs up this special use case.

Therefore more audiophiles will be feeling confirmed in there believes that there is some special magic something that can't be measured.

Some think this is snake-oil
https://www.neutrik.com/en/neutrik/products/xlr-connectors/xlr-chassis-connectors/emc-series
or this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_bead#/media/File:Cable_end.JPG

Of cause A 2000$ cable is snake-oil. And if we make sensible conclusions that's obvious but someone who can make sensible conclusions would not consider a 2000$ cable in the first pace.
 
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Katji

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So then you can capitalise the name, common courtesy. [ok, maybe not so common now, but still, everyone who had any education knows it.]
 

Lambda

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Science isn't opinion, the dielectric properties of all popular insulators are well documented as well as easily measured.
What is debatable is there a "real world" impact and this is dependent on "real wold conditions" which are not defined more precisely here

So saying "No audible effect" is only valid if the conditions are defined. otherwise one could falsely assume under all conditions.

Here is a "measurement" i made, showing another related and glossed over effect of cables.
Some dielectric materials seems to be triboelectric or have piezoelectric effect.
Actually im not sure but matter of fact is the tested Cat5E is microphonic.
Rubbing, bending and hitting the cable makes Noise.
Recognized this problem under real world condition in my real world.
Years later someone told me taht's impossible... but i was able to recreate it with another cable
https://soundcloud.com/lambda-9%2Fcat5e
most circumstances, that's pretty close to the truth. More importantly, it doesn't take a huge amounts of engineering skill to take the concept of a rusty paperclip and add the elements that gives you a close to ideal RCA cable, at least for all practical purposes.
But choosing the not challenging circumstances than seems kind of pointless to me.

At least in Germany its not uncommon to have some sort of ground loop issues and or a view mV Noise between Antenna Ground, CableTV Ground, PE and N
People carelessly connecting there TV,PC ,radio and what not to there AVReceiver or Preamp and then wonder why the turntable is humming...

For me a little bit of common mode noise current therefore does not seem to be a like a totally made up test.
Under this conditions it's maybe possible measure a difference between the 1,95$ 5m RCA cabel and some decent quality 10$ cable.
But the 2000$ cable will still be pointless because as we all know. it is...


and establishing that they do NOT deserve any benefit of the doubt.
it seems entirely possibly to me to give it the benefit of the doubt and anyways show that its Snake-oil
 

SIY

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Actually im not sure but matter of fact is the tested Cat5E is microphonic.
Rubbing, bending and hitting the cable makes Noise.
Recognized this problem under real world condition in my real world.
Years later someone told me taht's impossible... but i was able to recreate it with another cable

People say all sorts of things. Someone once told me that Einstein was a fake.

People with very basic understanding are well aware of triboelectricity so avoid things like silver and Teflon at low levels and high impedances. But that's fashion stuff, and all bets are off regarding basic competency when you get into that segment. You'll do better with normal stuff using normal materials.
 

Lambda

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People say all sorts of things
Well i myself was super skeptical.
I'm aware of that effects but i thought, its gonna be fine and not noticeable in the real world.
The cable was already installed in the wall so i gave it try. Turned out not to be fine, but it was worth a try.

Sometimes being ignorant and doing thing that should not work pays off.
 
OP
amirm

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But awareness of the limitations of the measurements methods and the drawable conclusion is very important if you want to have a scientific discussion.
We are not having a "scientific discussion." You get thrown out of the room if you think anything about these cables involves "science." The idea of the testing, and that is all it is, testing, is to see in the most common scenario people use them, does it impact, noise, distortion, frequency response, or level. Turned out it picks more noise. Other than that, this was a black box test so it made no sense to try to characterize the cable itself.

Even when highly zoomed in, frequency response does not change whatsoever:

index.php


So I doubt very much -- as a matter of science -- that capacitance is a factor here when we can't even measure its effect up to 200 kHz bandwidth.
 
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