OP
- Thread Starter
- #141
The sweep was 8 volts. I am assuming it doesn't care about the voltage. I have test their previous products at full AP output and results were the same.
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Audioquest Niagara 1200 Review (Power Conditioner/Surge Protector)
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
OP
- Thread Starter
- #142
I can use my AC generator to test that. The thing is packed though to be shipped. Let me ask the owner if he minds waiting for it.
Alcophone
Member
According to my Kill A Watt, both the Niagara 1000 and 1200 consume about 2.4 W without any devices plugged in.
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
That suggests to me (I could be wrong) just the overvoltage circuitry active components. Depending on how they supply the low level relay drive circuitry. Usually it's a cap/resistor/rectifier type deal.
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2021
- Messages
- 6
- Likes
- 37
I don’t mind if you want to run more tests. Judging from your review I’m not in a mad rush to hook it back up.
I monitored the mains voltage at one shop we had and the variation from early morning to after ~7PM -8PM when the industrial shops around us used less power (I guess) was about from ~105VAC to ~ 130VAC. It did not cause any issues but another shop I worked at had to get AC Mains equipment that supplied filtered and pure 60 HZ sine wave with a steady voltage (A instrument calibration shop.). That was a expensive box.
MRC01
Major Contributor
I have an open mind about this product. I have always believed that well designed & built audio gear, or any other electronic equipment intended for household use, should have well regulated power supplies with sufficient AC filtration to handle the amount of noise or ripple on common residential power.
However, I would change my view based on evidence in 3 areas: (1) that residential power can commonly (in many places, at many times) have significant noise or ripple, and (2) that well designed and built power supplies do not suppress this, so it (measurably) leaks through into audio output, and (3) this product (or other power filters) suppress that junk providing measurably cleaner audio output. I would like to see such an example because it would be interesting & educational.
The reason I need evidence is because these sound like unusual claims. Here in the USA, residential AC power is 60 Hz. Most audio gear measurements show a 60 Hz ripple and its harmonics in the audio output at what... at least -80 dB even in cheap gear? often -100 dB or lower. And that is the biggest amplitude frequency of AC power; any noise or ripple on the AC is a tiny fraction of that.
To give credit to the contrary view, obviously, standard power supplies are designed to suppress the primary AC frequency. So it may be invalid to assume they'll suppress high frequency noise as well as they suppress 60 Hz, since those higher freqs are outside the design parameters of the power supply. Maybe. If that's so, we'll see it in measurements. Yet the measurements I've seen here and elsewhere over the years, and measuring gear myself, do not show this. They show a tiny ripple at 60 Hz and that's the worst case with all higher frequencies suppressed even lower.
Of course, if someone does document such an example, the next question will be: how common is this? Maybe that is the exception that proves the norm.
However, I would change my view based on evidence in 3 areas: (1) that residential power can commonly (in many places, at many times) have significant noise or ripple, and (2) that well designed and built power supplies do not suppress this, so it (measurably) leaks through into audio output, and (3) this product (or other power filters) suppress that junk providing measurably cleaner audio output. I would like to see such an example because it would be interesting & educational.
The reason I need evidence is because these sound like unusual claims. Here in the USA, residential AC power is 60 Hz. Most audio gear measurements show a 60 Hz ripple and its harmonics in the audio output at what... at least -80 dB even in cheap gear? often -100 dB or lower. And that is the biggest amplitude frequency of AC power; any noise or ripple on the AC is a tiny fraction of that.
To give credit to the contrary view, obviously, standard power supplies are designed to suppress the primary AC frequency. So it may be invalid to assume they'll suppress high frequency noise as well as they suppress 60 Hz, since those higher freqs are outside the design parameters of the power supply. Maybe. If that's so, we'll see it in measurements. Yet the measurements I've seen here and elsewhere over the years, and measuring gear myself, do not show this. They show a tiny ripple at 60 Hz and that's the worst case with all higher frequencies suppressed even lower.
Of course, if someone does document such an example, the next question will be: how common is this? Maybe that is the exception that proves the norm.
beeface
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2017
- Messages
- 353
- Likes
- 815
This forum is definitely a bit overeager when it comes to pile-ons. AudioQuest don't do themselves any favours with their track record and marketing, but I do see the need to assess each product on its own merit.
I admit I'm not super knowledgeable when it comes to power conditioning and surge protection. If one has expensive equipment, I can see the purpose of the latter in particular. Given the piggybank panther, I'm curious what differentiates it from other, more affordable products on the market - not necessarily Hi-Fi branded ones, but consumer level products, commercial/integrator AV equipment or even IT-focused products.
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2021
- Messages
- 6
- Likes
- 37
Yeah, I was the one tricked into buying this unit by reading online reviews and watching YouTubers. I wish I would have found this site sooner. Just trying to set up a decent sounding stereo for streaming with room correction. It’s been quite a challenge. I was trying a PrimaLuna amp with a Lumin streamer when I bought this AQ stuff to try and make it sound good. No luck-there was no audible difference between the wall and the Niagara. I think I’ll keep it to remind me of being led down the path.
The point @restorer-john makes is spot on. At a reasonable price this is a perfectly good and useful device. At $300 tops, and that allows for a bling case and HiFi accessory markups. In reality an equivalent utilitarian device should be significantly less. And they are.
If we look to traditional power supplies in equipment they do a middling job of filtering. Power supply capacitors all have some inductance, and at higher frequencies cease to filter. Inter winding capacitance couples high frequencies across transformers. When we get to switching power supplies there is so much higher frequency stuff going anyway that the entire device is going to be more resistant, and regulation intrinsic to the operation of the device gets rid of issues as well.
So your big traditional transformer based PS is likely going to allow some amount of junk through, and the frequency of that junk may be in an objectionable band. Lack of regulation on traditional power supplies means that their output varies along with the mains.
So, a conventional class AB/B power amp with global feedback is actually pretty resistant to power supply issues. Power supply rejection ratio PSRR is a common figure of merit. Class A amplifiers are another matter, and they have a terrible time with power supply noise. All the low or no global feedback amplifiers are also wide open to noise on the power supply. So one can see a perfect market. Selling cult audiophile amplifier designs that are intrinsically sensitive to mains issues and then sell power supply filters to try to mitigate poor design. Looks like a brilliant idea if you are selling. Class D amplifiers are unlikely to be so sensitive, so again many modern designs are likely more immune.
So, these filter devices can help. They are not of themselves snake oil. This one is oversold and dramatically overpriced. So the piggy bank panther is exactly right.
The insane power cords however are just the purest snake oil. A lot of this junk is just yet more ways of liberating money from people that have too much.
If we look to traditional power supplies in equipment they do a middling job of filtering. Power supply capacitors all have some inductance, and at higher frequencies cease to filter. Inter winding capacitance couples high frequencies across transformers. When we get to switching power supplies there is so much higher frequency stuff going anyway that the entire device is going to be more resistant, and regulation intrinsic to the operation of the device gets rid of issues as well.
So your big traditional transformer based PS is likely going to allow some amount of junk through, and the frequency of that junk may be in an objectionable band. Lack of regulation on traditional power supplies means that their output varies along with the mains.
So, a conventional class AB/B power amp with global feedback is actually pretty resistant to power supply issues. Power supply rejection ratio PSRR is a common figure of merit. Class A amplifiers are another matter, and they have a terrible time with power supply noise. All the low or no global feedback amplifiers are also wide open to noise on the power supply. So one can see a perfect market. Selling cult audiophile amplifier designs that are intrinsically sensitive to mains issues and then sell power supply filters to try to mitigate poor design. Looks like a brilliant idea if you are selling. Class D amplifiers are unlikely to be so sensitive, so again many modern designs are likely more immune.
So, these filter devices can help. They are not of themselves snake oil. This one is oversold and dramatically overpriced. So the piggy bank panther is exactly right.
The insane power cords however are just the purest snake oil. A lot of this junk is just yet more ways of liberating money from people that have too much.
Last edited:
tmtomh
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2018
- Messages
- 2,976
- Likes
- 8,795
I appreciate the wise cautions against piling-on, truly - but this isn't the first, or second, or third, AudioQuest product Amir has reviewed, and they all seem to be either (a) mediocre portable DACs that are clearly bettered by cheaper alternatives, and (b) obscenely overpriced and/or non-performing products.
I certainly agree that testing and data are what counts and not reputation. But seriously, is there another major brand that can approach AudioQuest's breadth and consistency in the high-dollar snake-oil racket? It seems to me that they've more than earned their reputation and at this point the safe working assumption should be that any AQ product is effectively garbage unless or until measurements and testing show otherwise.
I certainly agree that testing and data are what counts and not reputation. But seriously, is there another major brand that can approach AudioQuest's breadth and consistency in the high-dollar snake-oil racket? It seems to me that they've more than earned their reputation and at this point the safe working assumption should be that any AQ product is effectively garbage unless or until measurements and testing show otherwise.
Last edited:
I have one of these.
Would be interested in knowing, on the basis of Amir's testing whether it has any positive (or negative) effects and if I were in the US I'd happily provide mine up for evaluation.
Anybody in the US got one ...... ?
theglobalelite
Member
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2020
- Messages
- 91
- Likes
- 144
Is it possible these types of AC conditioning devices could have helped 80s or 90s era electronics? Sometimes things that start out life as a useful technology far outlive their welcome because of the juicy profit margins *cough* fax machines *cough*
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2020
- Messages
- 124
- Likes
- 208
"edit: Darko and Herb are literally the last people on earth anybody should take seriously for an honest opinion on a product. Their track record is bad as a back street hooker’ memory of clients."
I don't think you should slander sex workers like that.
I don't think you should slander sex workers like that.
Lupin
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2021
- Messages
- 600
- Likes
- 1,004
So the coil in a 1000 dollar product is kept in place by some zip ties... somehow I'm not impressed.
I've seen DIY projects that looks more professional then this.
respice finem
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2021
- Messages
- 1,867
- Likes
- 3,801
This is actually a simple and effective way to mount a large and heavy coil on a PCB. You will sooner break the board than the ties.
Balle Clorin
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2017
- Messages
- 1,654
- Likes
- 1,511
Niagara at least has something Inside, the Nordost Q8 has one resistor to common "star-ground" for the safey-ground that is it.. this is what they tell you also .
The essence of the QBASE-Mark II concept is a straight-line AC distribution path, combined with star-earthed topology for connection to a clean ground. By eliminating any form of in-line filtering or active circuitry we maintain the lowest possible AC supply impedance, while a tiny lift in the earth impedance of all but one of the output sockets routes the signal grounds directly to the center of the star and the clean earth terminal. Clearly identified on the casework, this Primary Earth socket is at the center of your system’s performance, literally and metaphorically. It defines both the order in which you connect your components and also, their listening priority in your musical enjoyment, allowing you to further optimize the performance of your primary sources. ,
Some people at willing to pay 1600 USD for a plain power distributor that has absolutely no effect on your sound, no filter m no protection nothing. Nice casework and full of hot air..
Nordost are careful not to lie-directly but gives you the impression that it does important tings, while it is doing next to nothing for a price 100 times more than an ordinary powerbar from a utility store.
The reviewer here is not exactly lying either
The QBASE is as neutral as the day is long, in the optimal sense of the word. Delightfully free of any sonic signature and so even-handed, you'll be hard pressed to discern it imposing anything additive on the sound. On the other hand, it let all of the important musical information come through undisturbed.
Translated this means that it does nothing.
Nordost QB8 and Furutech NCF - Servo.lv
The essence of the QBASE-Mark II concept is a straight-line AC distribution path, combined with star-earthed topology for connection to a clean ground. By eliminating any form of in-line filtering or active circuitry we maintain the lowest possible AC supply impedance, while a tiny lift in the earth impedance of all but one of the output sockets routes the signal grounds directly to the center of the star and the clean earth terminal. Clearly identified on the casework, this Primary Earth socket is at the center of your system’s performance, literally and metaphorically. It defines both the order in which you connect your components and also, their listening priority in your musical enjoyment, allowing you to further optimize the performance of your primary sources. ,
Some people at willing to pay 1600 USD for a plain power distributor that has absolutely no effect on your sound, no filter m no protection nothing. Nice casework and full of hot air..
Nordost are careful not to lie-directly but gives you the impression that it does important tings, while it is doing next to nothing for a price 100 times more than an ordinary powerbar from a utility store.
The reviewer here is not exactly lying either
The QBASE is as neutral as the day is long, in the optimal sense of the word. Delightfully free of any sonic signature and so even-handed, you'll be hard pressed to discern it imposing anything additive on the sound. On the other hand, it let all of the important musical information come through undisturbed.
Translated this means that it does nothing.
Nordost QB8 and Furutech NCF - Servo.lv
Attachments
Last edited:
I've seen it on a $60M product... if that makes you feel better.
Similar threads
- Poll
