Audiophiles say it is hard to reproduce a concert grand piano... I don't think so?

[hvbias]

This is one that I have heard going back to the early 2000s- reproducing a concert grand piano is one of the hardest things a system can do. I don't really think so though? I am probably in the neighborhood of hearing 300-400 solo piano recitals from various seats. Recently I was in the 4th or 5th row, my preference for more direct sound plus a good sight line to watch the pianist play.

I don't even have a by Toole's research standards an objectively amazing set of speakers, I've been using Quad ESL57 for the past ~10 years. And while I am on a journey to upgrade them to something that plays louder and with better bass whenever I listen to them I am immediately reminded of why I am in no hurry whatsoever to buy something new.

The things I think that need to be hit when reproducing a concert grand piano:
1) tonally even
2) timbrally need to sound "real," this is harder to quantify but several people touched on it in the recent discussion in the Grimm LSC1 review thread, with how measurements correlate with this in the power response and even small changes therein
3) wide dynamic range, free of compression
4) excellent extension on both ends. I put number four last because there isn't that much low, low bass when compared to an organ, but yes in a high fidelity system it should still be able to reproduce all the octaves of a modern grand

Going back to my preferred seating (if going purely by sound quality I would sit further back) it's really not that difficult to reproduce a piano. Where I find there is a big issue is with recordings where they are often mic'd to sound too wide between the left and right hands. But this is on the recording engineers, not us as listeners.

To see where my ears would be for my preferred seating for both sound and visual aspect (edit: now that I'm viewing it that picture is taken with a zoom, so not the most accurate, let me see if I have a better one)

 

[kyuu]

I love the piano, but yes this is another audiophile myth. This is well evidenced by the fact that digital pianos nowadays are very good at emulating a real piano, and oftentimes even sound better than smaller uprights and grands (since their samples and/or modeling are generally based on larger concert grands). The only area they typically lack is in the dynamics needed to really fill a concert hall, but that's not really something you need or even want when you're listening to a piece in a domestic space. A concert grand in a small room is a bit overwhelming.

And of course, a good hi-fi system is much more capable than the speaker systems in your typical digital piano.

 

[hvbias]

I love the piano, but yes this is another audiophile myth. This is well evidenced by the fact that digital pianos nowadays are very good at emulating a real piano, and oftentimes even sound better than smaller uprights and grands (since their samples and/or modeling are generally based on larger concert grands). The only area they typically lack is in the dynamics needed to really fill a concert hall, but that's not really something you need or even want when you're listening to a piece in a domestic space. A concert grand in a small room is a bit overwhelming.

And of course, a good hi-fi system is much more capable than the speaker systems in your typical digital piano anyway.

I'll strongly disagree on a digital piano sounding as good as a well maintained/tuned acoustic concert grand.

I could maybe see it for jazz where the piano is played with much lower dynamic range and often the music written/composed on them isn't as tonally complex, but still consider me as a big no on that given how good Faziolis I've heard on record and in person with jazz pianists.

 

[kyuu]

I'll strongly disagree on a digital piano sounding as good as a well maintained/tuned acoustic concert grand.

You'll note I specifically said smaller grands and uprights. That's mostly because the bass register on those smaller pianos are often pretty muddy due to the strings lengths being too short (and therefore relying on making the strings thicker instead), which digital pianos do not suffer from. Also, many many pianos are not kept properly in tune, which is also something digital pianos do not suffer from.

I did not say they're equal to a well-tuned, proper concert grand.

 

[hvbias]

You'll note I specifically said smaller grands and uprights. I did not say they're equal to a proper concert grand.

Classical recordings and concerts are for the most part played on full size concert grands, not baby grands and uprights, so it's a moot point?

 

[DSJR]

I'd suggest that a larger speaker with effortless dynamics would be needed too, as well as extended rtresponse and low colourationm, especially in the bass region. The dynamics of a well recorded piano can be surprising...

 

[quattro98]

We have a Yamaha U3 with the Silent Piano system which involves using a pedal to block the hammers from hitting the strings, sensors to detect the keys/hammers, and a binaural sample of a grand piano that you listen to via headphones. It is amazing how real it sounds. The experience is not the same as playing the piano in the room, but the effect is very convincing through a pair of cheap headphones.

 

[Sokel]

I'd suggest that a larger speaker with effortless dynamics would be needed too, as well as extended rtresponse and low colourationm, especially in the bass region. The dynamics of a well recorded piano can be surprising...

That's the one side of it, full-range speakers (of the mains monitors fashion)/nicely treated room (or sound) , enough SPL and a good recording can do the high side.
The sad,other side is at the opposite, the real fidelity of the low level playing of it.

That's where primary the recordings and then the playback systems may suffer to deliver.

 

[mcochris]

I’m curious if anyone has recommendations for recordings that capture a concert grand piano very accurately. Many of the ones I’ve heard don’t seem to have the openness and dynamics of the real instrument.

 

[Sokel]

I’m curious if anyone has recommendations for recordings that capture a concert grand piano very accurately. Many of the ones I’ve heard don’t seem to have the openness and dynamics of the real instrument.

Nice recording, plus mature performance, try Glenn Gould's 1981 Goldberg Variations.

It's not as thunderous as a Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto but a good overall experience.

 

[hvbias]

I’m curious if anyone has recommendations for recordings that capture a concert grand piano very accurately. Many of the ones I’ve heard don’t seem to have the openness and dynamics of the real instrument.

Openness comes down to how far they are mic'd. Most classical listeners, including myself don't want to hear a microphone placed where we are seated, by placing the mics say in the 6th row it's not going to sound like how it sounds live from the 6th row because microphones aren't a 100% facsimile of ears, so they mic it closer for more immediacy, but you lose some of the space. A good compromise is recording in a studio or venue that has more lively acoustics and mic'ing slightly further away but you'll still have detractors for that so the majority of recordings go back to close mic'ing. Alternative number three is multichannel where the rear channels pick up sound from further away to expand the space.

Also worth keeping in mind the vast majority of heavy classical listeners aren't audiophiles. They're listening on their phones or all in one CD systems they might have bought 25+ years ago. So having a piano sound more direct on these smaller system is more important than what it sounds like live.

As far as dynamics any good recording should capture this very well. For recordings that do a decent job of all the aspects of great piano recording some (key point as some of his live recordings like the one of Earl Wild have the mics too far apart) of Peter McGrath's recordings on Audiofon are reference level.

Here is one of my favorites both for performance (Nelson Freire was one of the greatest) and realistic sound. It captures the tonal richness of a concert grand while also not exaggerating the soundstage. And it has plenty of space because it's a live recording though there is audience noise.

There was also a topic on piano recordings being too wide with the left/right hands on ASR and I posted some samples in it but the thread has died on vine.

That's the one side of it, full-range speakers (of the mains monitors fashion)/nicely treated room (or sound) , enough SPL and a good recording can do the high side.
The sad,other side is at the opposite, the real fidelity of the low level playing of it.

That's where primary the recordings and then the playback systems may suffer to deliver.

By low level if you mean when passages are scored pianissimo this is quite easy for a good system. Arcadi Volodos is one of the greatest performers currently and his pianissimo playing is just divine, my system can reproduce what is on say the Schubert D959 Andantino from his recording extremely well.

 

[olds1959special]

I love the sound of a real piano. Digital pianos just don't compare. Some pianos are hybrid acoustic/digital.