Audiophiles, generally don't like class D amps!

[Porter]

Kiplisch speakers typically have a very bright sound, and the NCore won't mask that like some other amps do, and that may be the issue you have now, you hear the bright Kiplisch sound.

Why would other amps "mask" the sound if they have equivalently flat frequency response and plenty of power? Wouldn't that be something visible on the test bench during a simple frequency sweep?

 

[Porter]

But that’s not how auditory memory works.

You’re not deluded, just as human as all of us. We’re really bad at this kind of thing. Auditory memory is extremely short, and we humans. Have no way of shutting off various stimuli that contribute to how we feel about what we hear.

I see a lot of claims on here about auditory memory. I have to say, it's kind of striking how reductive it is. It's important to recognize that every person remembers things differently. Like, literally differently. Not that we remember the same events in different ways, but that we process and store the memories themselves differently from one another. That's why some people can easily remember names or dates, and others can't remember a name but could tell you what someone was wearing when they met for drinks five years ago. I know a person with exceptional episodic memory, who can recall exact orders of events on particular days years in the past, including what the weather had been like that day, what she was wearing, and who was in the room (vs present but in another room nearby) when a particular thing happened.

I often can't remember why I walked into another room, or what I'm supposed to be doing tomorrow at 10am, but I can weirdly remember the fine technical detail of an IT configuration decision that we made at work 7 or 8 years ago, including the specifics, and sometimes even what password was associated with the service account used on the piece of gear. So I think it's unfair to say that "human beings are bad at auditory memory" when it's very possible that three different people will have wildly different levels of auditory memory, some of them abysmal and others less so. Are human beings generally good at that? Maybe not, but it's also not something that's scientifically super well understood on either end of that chain (fine sensory perception or memory storage and recall of it), so blanket claims aren't generally useful. Some people are colorblind, but that doesn't prevent other people from having exceptionally fine color perception, particularly if they have training in color theory. We're all different.

 

[voodooless]

I see a lot of claims on here about auditory memory. I have to say, it's kind of striking how reductive it is. It's important to recognize that every person remembers things differently. Like, literally differently. Not that we remember the same events in different ways, but that we process and store the memories themselves differently from one another. That's why some people can easily remember names or dates, and others can't remember a name but could tell you what someone was wearing when they met for drinks five years ago. I know a person with exceptional episodic memory, who can recall exact orders of events on particular days years in the past, including what the weather had been like that day, what she was wearing, and who was in the room (vs present but in another room nearby) when a particular thing happened.

I often can't remember why I walked into another room, or what I'm supposed to be doing tomorrow at 10am, but I can weirdly remember the fine technical detail of an IT configuration decision that we made at work 7 or 8 years ago, including the specifics, and sometimes even what password was associated with the service account used on the piece of gear. So I think it's unfair to say that "human beings are bad at auditory memory" when it's very possible that three different people will have wildly different levels of auditory memory, some of them abysmal and others less so. Are human beings generally good at that? Maybe not, but it's also not something that's scientifically super well understood on either end of that chain (fine sensory perception or memory storage and recall of it), so blanket claims aren't generally useful. Some people are colorblind, but that doesn't prevent other people from having exceptionally fine color perception, particularly if they have training in color theory. We're all different.

I’m not versed in the details of auditory memory. But there are a few forum members that have done extensive scientific research on these subjects. They may chime in

 

[SIY]

I have not claimed that I can "hear a difference" between the two amps. On the contrary, I think they sound remarkably similar. There's absolutely no way I could tell them apart in a cursory blind A/B test. The only thing I am talking about is auditory (or maybe sensory?) fatigue over time, which is not a thing that you can detect at all in a short A/B test, whether blind or otherwise.

That "it takes time" chestnut has never withstood experimental test. Peeking will invariably lead to incorrect conclusions.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

I'm talking about months of leaving it alone and using it casually, without thinking too much about equipment. You develop a general impression of the sound as a sum of experiences. This is not a thing where I'm testing the equipment in an A/B way, instead I'm owning the gear and using it with a bunch of different kinds of material as part of my normal, casual, daily life.

To me, maybe the general difference in experience is down to a difference in the resolving capability of the amp, i.e. the Class D is actually better in that regard and what I'm hearing is the detail of poorly mastered recordings being revealed, or phase problems in poorly downmixed surround content delivered as LPCM 2 channel from HD streaming services. But that flies in the face of the claim (often used here) that states that all amplifiers that test equivalently will sound indistinguishable from one another unless they are broken. The fact that I don't get the same sonic impression from the other amps over time does tell me something. Sure, maybe that thing is that I'm deluded, and there's nothing sonic that can be perceived or understood as qualitatively different by a human being in audio reproduction at all, and the only thing that matters in the world is a bench measurement. I just don't particularly think that's true, or at all useful as a rigid, reflexive principle.

Please, what does "resolving capability" mean?

 

[Porter]

Please, what does "resolving capability" mean?

This is a claim that others have made, that I'm giving notional credence to in order to be inclusive of the perspective. The idea is that the Class D amp is "better" at resolving full detail in the treble, therefore I'm hearing a shortcoming of the speaker itself that the other amps are "masking". I don't understand how that isn't a claim that amps sound different from one another, but again, it's not specifically a claim that I'm making.

 

[Porter]

That "it takes time" chestnut has never withstood experimental test. Peeking will invariably lead to incorrect conclusions.

I'm not aware of any experimental conclusion in this field that involves entirely blind long-term listening impressions. Seems like a design gap, if the claim being tested is that long term listening impressions are invalid. If there are some, hopefully someone will chime in and point us to an academic paper or something.

 

[Porter]

I’m not versed in the details of auditory memory. But there are a few forum members that have done extensive scientific research on these subjects. They may chime in

People on the internet claim a lot of things, often quite passionately, that sometimes turn out to not be true.

 

[Ricardus]

The only thing I am talking about is auditory (or maybe sensory?) fatigue over time, which is not a thing that you can detect at all in a short A/B test, whether blind or otherwise.

I've been hearing about this fatigue for a while now. What is it? How does it manifest itself? Does it make you tired? I mean seriously. How would you describe it to a Doctor?

 

[Porter]

Here's an interesting thing... why would a company like Genelec, renowned for their active monitor technology and audio fidelity, use differential amp topologies (Class D for low and mid drivers, Class AB for treble) on many of their flagship full-size monitors?

See here: https://www.genelec.com/main-studio-monitors

 

[Porter]

I've been hearing about this fatigue for a while now. What is it? How does it manifest itself? Does it make you tired? I mean seriously. How would you describe it to a Doctor?

Mild irritation at the sound and a desire to turn it off, or listen to something else.

It's not a myth. This is a thing that has been really extensively researched, particularly in military radio and signals operations. It's also a huge deal in professional studio environments, where people listen critically for many hours a day as part of their full time job. Most studio monitor manufacturers reference the reduction of it specifically as a design goal.

 

[Purité Audio]

Do they…
I have directly compared classes A/B, D ( hypex, Purifi nd Pascal) and hybrids such as the AHB2 no listener fatigue.
As has been mentioned if you really want to critically compare then it must be unsighted and level matched.
Keith

 

[Porter]

Do they…
I have directly compared classes A/B, D ( hypex, Purifi nd Pascal) and hybrids such as the AHB2 no listener fatigue.
As has been mentioned if you really want to critically compare then it must be unsighted and level matched.
Keith

OK... but are you claiming that listener fatigue is not a thing that exists? Because that seems to be what's being implied by several other folks here.

 

[Purité Audio]

Speakers with an uptilted treble response absolutely.
Keith

 

[SIY]

I'm not aware of any experimental conclusion in this field that involves entirely blind long-term listening impressions. Seems like a design gap, if the claim being tested is that long term listening impressions are invalid. If there are some, hopefully someone will chime in and point us to an academic paper or something.

There's been numerous cites here. Do a bit of digging.

 

[Porter]

Speakers with an uptilted treble response absolutely.
Keith

Sure, but why a difference between different amps?

 

[SIY]

Sure, but why a difference between different amps?

Sometimes source impedance. Sometimes peeking.

 

[Porter]

Sometimes source impedance. Sometimes peeking.

If it's just some sort of confirmation bias, wouldn't the peeking sway me toward liking the Class D more? I mean I have a lot of money invested in the Class D being good, and zero interest in additional box-shaped devices in my living room that I then have to explain to my wife. I personally don't give a flying F in a rainstorm about the technical differences, though I do generally understand them. What I'm saying is that this is not ideological for me. I genuinely would prefer for the Class D amp to be ideal for my scenario, because it is dramatically more convenient for my life by being small and highly integrated in function.

 

[Purité Audio]

No.
Keith

 

[SIY]

If it's just some sort of confirmation bias, wouldn't the peeking sway me toward liking the Class D more?

Nope, that's not how unconscious bias works. There's no way around having to use controls for sonic evaluation.