Audiophiles, generally don't like class D amps!

[antcollinet]

And I'm not sure we can imply it is wrong for people to prefer adding biases to their listing (more bass, more treble, etc.).

We can't, we don't.

or purchasing equipment that has such bias built into the reproduction (e.g., tubes, systems that have an intentional "house curve", etc.).

And this is where a lot of audiophile mythology comes into it. Almost all the gear measured here has ruler flat frequency response to a resistive load.


Some amps (especially tube amps, and cheap class D without post filter feedback) have a relatively high output impedance, so can have a load dependent frequency response which can very a dB or two up and down according to the speakers impedance curve. But:

This is in no way a house curve (it varies based on the speaker in use). And it is a stupid way to try to get the sound you want (expensive trial and error approach). If you prefer a non flat response, start with a flat amp, and vary the response with tone controls or EQ.


And none of the above applies to other electronics such as DACs, or preamps. They all (except in the exceptionally rare instances of absolutely terrible design) have ruler flat frequency response in the audible band.

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

I do not understand. Why and How could there be a perfect sound ? Sounds behave according to where it is heard, the emotions of the listener, on so many factors. And why would a recorded linear sound be the perfect sound ? When you listen to a concert in a music hall, it all depends on where you sit and the room acoustics. When you listen to a concert in a church, the sound can be anything between fantastic to terrible, especially when the music is loud and charged. Neutral sound, if one means that putting a microphone in front of a speaker is the neutral sound, but who listens to sounds 10cm in front of a microphone ? We all have different ways of receiving sounds, and that is probably a positive part of the music experience.

 

[voodooless]

I do not understand. Why and How could there be a perfect sound ? Sounds behave according to where it is heard, the emotions of the listener, on so many factors. And why would a recorded linear sound be the perfect sound ?

You keep confusing making and recording music with reproducing it!

When you listen to a concert in a music hall, it all depends on where you sit and the room acoustics. When you listen to a concert in a church, the sound can be anything between fantastic to terrible, especially when the music is loud and charged. Neutral sound, if one means that putting a microphone in front of a speaker is the neutral sound, but who listens to sounds 10cm in front of a microphone ? We all have different ways of receiving sounds, and that is probably a positive part of the music experience.

See, you're doing it again...

If I have a concert in a church, and I record that, that includes all the church acoustics. I don't need to have a church-like room at home to play it back in. I just need neutral speakers in a good room to do this.

And I'm not sure we can imply it is wrong for people to prefer adding biases to their listing (more bass, more treble, etc.).

That is not bias, that is preference! Bias is something totally different!

 

[antcollinet]

Why and How could there be a perfect sound ?

We are talking mainly about electronic reproduction equipment (look at the thread title), which is designed to be transparent - ie to deliver the input to the output unchanged except as intended (eg from digital representation to analogue representation for a dac, or from line level signal to speaker level signal in the case of an amp)

Most electronics (and all well deisgned electronics) does that with inaudible (to the human ear) levels of noise and distortion, and flat frequency response. If they achieve that - then in terms of reproduction that is (audibly) perfect sound. And two different devices that achieve that will sound the same, with the same input.

Note that we are not saying anything about quality of - or preference for the recording. That is between the artist, the sound engineer, and you. We are talking about the capability to deliver the recording to your ears without audibly changing it. (except to taste if you use tone/eq controls)


Speakers are a different matter. There is significant and audible difference between different designs of speaker, and an individual design will also sound diffferent as it interacts with the room in which it is placed. This also means that it is not so valuable to "audition" speakers, except in the room in which they will be placed.

However the research mentioned above shows there are universal characteristics of speakers that result in user preference - Such as neutral response, and smooth off axis variation. This means the best way of selecting a speaker (assuming you cannot audition in your home) is to select based on measurements that show those characteristics.

Just as the best way to select electronics (as far as audio quality is concerned) is to pick from the vast available selection of audibly transparent devices - that have the features you want (especially tone controls and/or EQ if you want to customise the sound)

 

[kyuu]

Maybe try to think of it this way: say you play back some content and you don't think it sounds good/right. If you have a playback system that's as neutral as possible, then you know that it's the recording/mixing/mastering that's at fault. You can try some tone controls or just toss that content in the bin. If your playback system is not neutral, then you don't know what the problem is. Do you not like it because of the changes your system is imposing on it, or because of the content? You can't know.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Colored gear is even a bad proposition for a listener who does prefer colored sound reproduction. As a gross simplification, let's imagine there are 999 different colors hi-fi systems can add to diverge from perfectly neutral reproduction. What are the odds that any particular combination of colored hi-fi gear will perfectly suit any one listener's precise coloration preferences? Now consider that there is an order of magnitude more colors than 1000, and you can see that the probability rapidly approaches zero.

So why not strive for a neutral hi-fi system and then use DSP/eq/speaker placement/room treatments to adjust to your taste? Seems like the best way to turn the odds in your favor...

 

[goryu]

Colored gear is even a bad proposition for a listener who does prefer colored sound reproduction. As a gross simplification, let's imagine there are 999 different colors hi-fi systems can add to diverge from perfectly neutral reproduction. What are the odds that any particular combination of colored hi-fi gear will perfectly suit any one listener's precise coloration preferences? Now consider that there is an order of magnitude more colors than 1000, and you can see that the probability rapidly approaches zero.

So why not strive for a neutral hi-fi system and then use DSP/eq/speaker placement/room treatments to adjust to your taste? Seems like the best way to turn the odds in your favor...

Sure, that makes logical sense, and that for a lot of audio people is the problem. For many it isn't about science and logic- "trust your ears", "some things can't be measured", etc., it's all romance. There's a guy on an audio forum I read from time to time who changes his amp literally once a month, often times rebuying something he sold recently to try it again. When he posts pictures of his listen room he has a rack on one side wall with dozens of different audio cables he cycles through. He cycles through speakers as well- often times replacing the crossovers with all the latest boutique resistors and caps. Oddly, there isn't a single room treatment and when it is suggested that perhaps he might benefit from room measurements and acoustic treatments, he just scoffs. Everyone has their own fetishes that drive their interest in audio but this fellow seems to enjoy simply swapping components willy nilly. It takes all types I suppose...

 

[Mart68]

There's a guy on an audio forum I read from time to time who changes his amp literally once a month, often times rebuying something he sold recently to try it again

Yes, there's people who 'rotate' through their amplifier collection. Why? Why would anyone do that? I suppose it takes all sorts to make a world.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

We can't, we don't.

I agree. Which is why I wrote my comment in response to an earlier post that implied it is our duty to listen to what the artist created, the way the artist recorded it (and mixing engineer released it).

 

[Waxx]

Well, i also got a collection of amplifiers, that I sometimes swap from one system to the other. But for me it's more because i make diy speakers that change also from time to time. And some need more power than others. I do not buy and sell amps all the time, some of my amps are +10 years or longer in my possession, and i always have some amps in spare. And i don't think amps have magic qualities, it's just that they differ in type (tube to class D), poser (from 7.5w to 250w) and functionality (integrated, pure power amps, ...). I have 8 amps now, of which 2 are not in use at the moment. A big part of it is that i used to trade second hand stuff before i moved out of the city, and people still give me old amps (and other gear) when they don't need them anymore from time to time ... My newest amp is now 3 years old and my oldest 38 years and the most expensive that i paid was 650€

 

[antcollinet]

I agree. Which is why I wrote my comment in response to an earlier post that implied it is our duty to listen to what the artist created, the way the artist recorded it (and mixing engineer released it).

That isn't what @Sal1950 was saying.

His response was to *your* comment about the microphone not knowing what you like. Meaning it doesn't matter. Fidelity means fidelity to the source - the source is whatever was recorded. That is what our gear should be delivering to us.

There was no statement that you should not change that afterwards.

 

[HalSF]

Yes, there's people who 'rotate' through their amplifier collection. Why? Why would anyone do that? I suppose it takes all sorts to make a world.

There’s an audio-enthusiast paradox where you’d think that the person who has listened to and analyzed a vast variety of components, or who conducts shoot-outs meticulously and repetitively comparing numerous versions or masterings of a recording, possesses the most authoritative knowledge, but then you have to correct for the sheer distorting effects of driven compulsiveness and obsessive behavior on the reliability and basic sanity and trustworthy good taste of someone who maniacally goes off the deep end that way.

 

[rdenney]

I do not understand. Why and How could there be a perfect sound ? Sounds behave according to where it is heard, the emotions of the listener, on so many factors. And why would a recorded linear sound be the perfect sound ? When you listen to a concert in a music hall, it all depends on where you sit and the room acoustics. When you listen to a concert in a church, the sound can be anything between fantastic to terrible, especially when the music is loud and charged. Neutral sound, if one means that putting a microphone in front of a speaker is the neutral sound, but who listens to sounds 10cm in front of a microphone ? We all have different ways of receiving sounds, and that is probably a positive part of the music experience.

What means this, “perfect”?

The objective of hi-fi is accurate sound, where the waveforms are altered as little as possible in the playback system. That’s measurable engineering, not a value judgment.

Everything you describe affects the creation of the recording, not its playback. And that is not helped by the frequent fact that the producers are not listening on accurate playback systems.

Fortunately, music is powerful. If one seat in a hall means a different sound than another, and yet both are valid, then maybe those differences aren’t value judgements (as implied by the word “perfect”) that undermine the integrity of the music.

Maybe mixing a recording to have a spectral tilt that counteracts the frequency response error of the editing playback system is more consequential, simply because it’s unnecessary.

Rick “much room for improvement in recording production” Denney

 

[rdenney]

Sure, that makes logical sense, and that for a lot of audio people is the problem. For many it isn't about science and logic- "trust your ears", "some things can't be measured", etc., it's all romance. There's a guy on an audio forum I read from time to time who changes his amp literally once a month, often times rebuying something he sold recently to try it again. When he posts pictures of his listen room he has a rack on one side wall with dozens of different audio cables he cycles through. He cycles through speakers as well- often times replacing the crossovers with all the latest boutique resistors and caps. Oddly, there isn't a single room treatment and when it is suggested that perhaps he might benefit from room measurements and acoustic treatments, he just scoffs. Everyone has their own fetishes that drive their interest in audio but this fellow seems to enjoy simply swapping components willy nilly. It takes all types I suppose...

The problem isn’t with the innocently self-deluded who chase such rainbows. The problem is when they feel empowered to give expert advice.

Poor “experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other” Richard

 

[goryu]

The problem isn’t with the innocently self-deluded who chase such rainbows. The problem is when they feel empowered to give expert advice.

Poor “experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other” Richard

Don't they all?

 

[GS430man]

The Internet is a powerful thing. 50 years ago we had a handful of broadcast stations and some print media outlets. Often those outlets hired the best journalists/reviewers, with reasonably high standards, and many people came to mostly trust the news and reviews that they communicated.

Fast forward, and we have (literally) billions of news channels - everyone with a PC or cell phone and an opinion. Quality journalists and reviewers still exist (tips hat to Amir), but their voices are difficult to hear in the cacophony of personal opinions. One has to seek quality data, from multiple sources ideally.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

For many it isn't about science and logic- "trust your ears", "some things can't be measured", etc., it's all romance.

Yes, there are plenty of people in all walks of life who live under superstition and prefer to be mystified by perfectly explicable things. There people out there who believe fairy tales of all varieties.
This is the Audio Science Review forum, however, so I don't feel any need to dignify those poor benighted souls, and I certainly don't think we need to pander to them. So I don't care if someone has a friend of a cousin who is infused with pure bliss at the prospect of buying poorly engineered crap from snake oil salesmen. That guy is a mark, a rube, plain and simple, prey for the predators of the industry. People like him help keep the manipulation, deception, lies, and fraud alive.

 

[SuicideSquid]

Why and How could there be a perfect sound ? Sounds behave according to where it is heard, the emotions of the listener, on so many factors.

Consider film and television. When you have a piece of 35mm film and you shine a light through it, you see a picture. A good, properly calibrated television should show the scan of that 35mm piece of film with the same colours you'd see if you shine a light through it - matching the original. Nowadays, when everything is digital, professional monitors are all calibrated to produce the exact same colours. The best televisions reproduce the same colours as professional monitors do, so you can see a film exactly as the director intended.

If you decide you don't like how it looks and you want to artificially boost contrast, or change the colour balance, you can do that (why, I don't know, but you can). But it would be foolish to go out and buy a TV with poor colour accuracy and contrast and then claim that it looks "better" because that's just your subjective preference.

Likewise, for music, engineers, producers, and musicians mix and master music on speakers and other hardware designed to have very flat frequency response. If you want to hear music accurately, you should seek electronics that do not add noise and distortion that isn't present in the original recording, and speakers that have flat frequency response, so that you can hear, as closely as possible, what was actually recorded, mixed, and mastered.

If you then decide you prefer music with a big bass boost and lots of harmonic distortion, you can add those things, but it's foolish to say the only thing that matters is your subjective preference. Having shared experiences and common points of reference is important.

 

[mhardy6647]

Fast forward, and we have (literally) billions of news channels - everyone with a PC or cell phone and an opinion. Quality journalists and reviewers still exist (tips hat to Amir), but their voices are difficult to hear in the cacophony of personal opinions. One has to seek quality data, from multiple sources ideally.

 

[Defi]

Colored gear is even a bad proposition for a listener who does prefer colored sound reproduction. As a gross simplification, let's imagine there are 999 different colors hi-fi systems can add to diverge from perfectly neutral reproduction. What are the odds that any particular combination of colored hi-fi gear will perfectly suit any one listener's precise coloration preferences? Now consider that there is an order of magnitude more colors than 1000, and you can see that the probability rapidly approaches zero.

So why not strive for a neutral hi-fi system and then use DSP/eq/speaker placement/room treatments to adjust to your taste? Seems like the best way to turn the odds in your favor...

This is something that I have tried to explain over and over again. The logic is (to me) infallible. Enough that I think it starts making sense to my target until at the last second I am met with "But EQ is digital and I like a pure sound" and then I am reminded that I lack patience.