Audiophiles, generally don't like class D amps!

[fpitas]

Actual statement seen yesterday on an actual, traditional hifi forum (on which I am still a participating member, in full disclosure).



The above is part of a specific reply from a very earnest 'downsizing' thread @ AA:

Your Help Is Needed Please - thetubeguy1954 - Amp/Preamp Asylum

Your Help Is Needed Please - thetubeguy1954 - Amp/Preamp Asylum

www.audioasylum.com

The choice of phrase -- "chopped off" -- struck me as fraught with significance given the topic (PWM amplifiers, which certainly do "chop")
We are certainly easily influenced by our expectations.

Well...I'm not surprised it didn't sound like a SET

 

[mhardy6647]

I'm in the camp of Daniel von Recklinghausen in this regard.

That's a big 10-4, good buddy.

Well...I'm not surprised it didn't sound like a SET

Well -- since this is a "Class D" amp thread -- let me share a little story.
Years and years ago, I bought one of those once famous/infamous little "Lepai" (nominally) 20 watt stereo amplifiers ostensibly using the then-fashionable Tripath "Class T" (Class D) amplifier chip. Twenty bucks from PartsExpress.
Played with it for some time and thought it was "pretty OK" (as an ESL but phenomenally well-educated erstwhile colleague of mine would say). With great trepidation (lack of trust in the protection circuitry of the thing), I finally gritted my teeth and hooked it up to my Altec 604E Duplexes to compare to their usual amplification (SE 2A3).
My impression of the little Lepai compared to the 2A3 amplifier was very similar overall. The most salient difference: the Lepai was dead silent, whereas the DHT amplifier provides that soft but reassuring, very organic, hum residual from the AC filaments.
The midrange of the Lepai struck me (strikes me) as "drier" than that provided by SE 2A3. And, yes, I know that's utterly meaningless!
I wouldn't be at all surprised that, level matched and double blinded, I'd hear either no difference between the amplifiers, or better LF extension and definition from the Lepai relative to the 2A3 amp (if for no other reason than the good but not great SE output iron therein).

Strictly for illustration of the Lepai only -- no, I did NOT use the smiley EQ for the test!

 

[Vacceo]

It's the change to the status quo they don't like. I can be guilty of that too.

It's easy to dismiss a new paradgim as being 'wrong' if it challenges the base knowledge and beliefs systems, especially if it does so, much cheaper, easier and in some ways better.

HiFi was traditionally a difficult, expensive and arduous pursuit. You had to be in it for the long run. Pay your dues, climb the ladder and pay the price. Not anymore. You can jump to the top of the class for not a lot of time, effort or money. It sounds like cheating, but it is not.

Think about the time and money saved you can spend on listening to music that will sound great from almost the first minute.

 

[MaxBuck]

Interesting comments here.

For my part, I'm much more interested in having an amplifier that I know reproduces the signal it is provided. If I don't like the output, then I know either the source or my speakers are at fault.

Other people have different objectives, and they're welcome to them.

 

[bkdc]

It’s a misnomer. They should be called “distortionphiles” and not audiophiles.

 

[amirm]

The attitude of our local audiophile group has changed a lot in favor of class D. The last meeting was all about Class D and Hypex Nilai amplifier. To take a bit of credit , we are responsible for showcasing the great measurements of class D, and lack thereof of many traditional amplifiers. In the past, it was thought that class D didn't sound good and didn't measure good. One is fixed now.

 

[amirm]

BTW, one problem with Class D is that there are no ultra expensive amplifiers. High-end audiophiles like to buy expensive showcase products and none of those are class D (my own Mark Levinson amps being an exception).

 

[GXAlan]

Is it that they miss the distortion/colour from their class AB amps?

This is probably accurate. The Sony Class D amps which are already zero feedback with high distortion have a bass phase change option to further manipulate the audio.

What you don’t know is if the sound engineering was done with Class AB amps and that is how things are tuned. Good example is the MDR-Z1R headphones which were “voiced” from a studio pair of Dunlavy loudspeakers powered by Krell amps, since that was the Grammy winning Sony mastering engineer’s personal/work setup.

 

[fpitas]

Only a matter of time before someone packages up class D in a fancy expensive amp and gives it woo-woo marketing. Then the dam will break, and it can sound good.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Now I'd like to share an anecdote about my Class D experience that I wrote down about 10 years ago:

Audiophile low-end?

My SMSL SA S3 amplifier doesn't make it easy for me to find it really great. On the one hand because I find it hard to get away from tube technology, on the other hand because it was so damn cheap. Can such a cheap amplifier really be good? So I'm still not completely relaxed about listening to it, even though I can't really find fault with the sound. With the first digital amplifiers I tested in the late seventies, the sound was not yet on such a high level. At that time, SONY presented one of the first Class-D amplifiers on the market. Technologically, it was very impressive, but at that time it was not an option for me.

The following picture shows the SONY TA-N88 from 1976, which was still packed with discrete components.

It was only two decades later that Dr. Adya Tripathi made the breakthrough. His team in Silicon Valley put a complete class-D amplifier on a microchip. Well-known manufacturers then used Tripath ICs in amplifier components with outputs of up to 1kW. Although the company went bankrupt long ago, original components from old stocks are still being used. The Tripath hype in the audio amateur scene, which continues to this day, did not gain momentum until much later.

In the engineering publication 'IEEE-Spectrum', under the heading '25 Microchips That Shook the World' (A list of some of the most innovative, intriguing, and inspiring integrated circuits), one finds the following passage:

"Tripath Technology TA2020 AudioAmplifier (1998).
There's a subset of audiophiles who insist that vacuum tube-based amplifiers produce the best sound and always will. So when some in the audio community claimed that a solid-state class-D amp concocted by a Silicon Valley company called Tripath Technology delivered sound as warm and vibrant as tube amps, it was a big deal. Tripath's trick was to use a 50-megahertz sampling system to drive the amplifier. The company boasted that its TA2020 performed better and cost much less than any comparable solid-state amp."

Class-T® is not a fundamentally new class of amplifier, but the proprietary name for a proprietary Class-D architecture. The chip contains a signal processor with proactive and adaptive algorithms. The high switching frequency is used to correct errors before they become audible. Input signal and feedback from the output determine how the signal is encoded. One tries to maintain the sound quality with a robust control system under all circumstances. Uneven field-effect transistors in the output stage are compensated for within certain limits, as well as impurities in the supply voltage. These are all functions that normally cause additional development work and production costs in the periphery.

 

[danadam]

This also their way of saying that they are not much vulnerable to "confirmation bias".

When they are so wrong about this, it doesn't give much confidence that they are less wrong about other things. But maybe that's only my bias to interpret it this way

Also, with my current understanding of confirmation bias, I don't really see what's the link between "not trusting reviewers" and being immune to confirmation bias. How would that work? "Aha, this reviewer says what I believe is true. I can't trust him!"

 

[AdamG]

Class D attributes:

• Inexpensive per watt
• Unusually lightweight
• Performance surpasses or rivals traditional amps
• Doesn’t get hot enough to make toast or heat your Tea and room

Because they are Lightweight, cheap and stay relatively cool, it must be junk. To be able to purchase a 6 channel 502 that is capable of 3kw output for less than $2 Grand is sacrilege. Class D Amps are Science Fiction come to fruition. How can a sub $2K Amp possibly compare or compete with their $30 thousand 1/4 Ton room heaters?

Believe in the Science and Measurements and not in Groupthink and Fables.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Doesn't Mola Mola make an audiophile class D amp of huge expense?

Also Bel Canto at more sane, but still high pricing.

 

[fpitas]

Doesn't Mola Mola make an audiophile class D amp of huge expense?

Also Bel Canto at more sane, but still high pricing.

Mola Mola are pricey, but hardly crazy by audiophile standards. 6000 Euros or thereabouts, I think. And Bruno refuses to make up silly woo-woo nonsense to sell amps

 

[Purité Audio]

Twice that I believe, or 6k for just one.
Keith

 

[goryu]

Only a matter of time before someone packages up class D in a fancy expensive amp and gives it woo-woo marketing. Then the dam will break, and it can sound good.

BTW, one problem with Class D is that there are no ultra expensive amplifiers. High-end audiophiles like to buy expensive showcase products and none of those are class D (my own Mark Levinson amps being an exception).

There are already class d amps that cost 3-4 times what the state of art class d amps cost with worse measurements as an added insult.

 

[computer-audiophile]

The most salient difference: the Lepai was dead silent, whereas the DHT amplifier provides that soft but reassuring, very organic, hum residual from the AC filaments.

Oh my! As a noise phobist, that would be totally annoying for me. I always heat my tubes with DC. Then it's dead quiet!

 

[audiofooled]

Class D attributes:

• Inexpensive per watt
• Unusually lightweight
• Performance surpasses or rivals traditional amps
• Doesn’t get hot enough to make toast or heat your Tea and room

Because they are Lightweight, cheap and stay relatively cool, it must be junk. To be able to purchase a 6 channel 502 that is capable of 3kw output for less than $2 Grand is sacrilege. Class D Amps are Science Fiction come to fruition. How can a sub $2K Amp possibly compare or compete with their $30 thousand 1/4 Ton room heaters?

Believe in the Science and Measurements and not in Groupthink and Fables.

+1

It's all about bias as usual. Happens in other industries as well each time new technology is being introduced. People are skeptical about quality and performance, especially when looking at cheap Chinese products. They will copy and paste your grandmother in large quantities if they can profit. In case they can't sell it, they will recycle it.

Even though class D is nothing new, people sometimes need decades to adapt to something.

 

[atmasphere]

One thing I have wondered is why there aren't more direct digital class D amps. After all PWM is a form of digital. Why take a signal, convert it to analog and then back to PWM.

A simple take on it is when you have the digital built into the amp, its harder to update/upgrade. With separates this is much easier. Digital is still changing pretty fast (streamers are pretty much how its done these days... only a few years ago it was all on terabyte drives and a controller app on your smartphone).

 

[ivayvr]

My first class D amp was NAD D3020 V1 and it sounded exceptionally nice! Surprisingly, it was ranked very high for the number of years on the Stereophile recommended components list. It replaced my class A/B NAD C326 BEE and it was a clear improvement.
I believe that the main reason for lack of love of the "real" audiophiles is related to the fact that in many cases class D is offering the same or better sound at the fraction of the price of their esoteric "rigs". They simply can't relate to the poor sods who does not understand how much the sound could be improved by a simple 2K interconnect!
I really believe that it is mostly about the loss of exclusivity and status they hate.
There is a sign of changing times: famous Herb R from the famous magazine considers Genelec G 3 one of his reference speakers and he is fully aware that both amps powering it are class D!