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AUDIOPHILES: Are We Buying "THINGS" or "EXPERIENCES?"

Blumlein 88

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Do I understand that you have been disappointed to still have to interact with remote controls even though you've gone digital, and would prefer not to bother with the pesky things?

(And if so, doesn't using a smartphone/ipad or whatever mostly get around that, if you are all digital?)

Just trying to understand exactly what bugs you.

For me pride of ownership...or really just the pleasure of using a system...definitely extends to a remote control. If I have to use one, it's the thing I'll be interacting with most, so any crappy ergonomics or an ugly device or bad "hand feel" detracts.

So for instance it's quite a disappointment to interact with what might be a beautifully designed amp or preamp or whatever, and then interact with some cruddy plastic remote with tiny buttons.

Also, since, like most of us, I'm on a computer much of the time and have screens tugging at my attention all day, including my iphone, I like taking a break from interacting yet again with a computer or phone to listen to music. And no remote I own, or iphone, gives me the tactile pleasure I'd prefer.

For all those reasons, I'm currently having a custom remote control built for my system, which will operate both my CJ tube preamp and Benchmark LA4 preamp. It will be a beautiful slab of ergonomically molded wood, with a physical volume knob that can not only do volume but, with different presses of the knob, send various commands (e.g. "mute/dim...or switch between the Benchmark and CJ premp, switch inputs in either, etc).

I'm frankly sick of most remote control options for music and I want that really basic, physical tactile feeling of using a volume knob...but from the comfort of my listening sofa. This hopefully will do the trick.
I find using a remote, even a very nice remote, diminishes pride of ownership. I think it is tactile and visual. If you walk over to adjust volume, switch sources or start a disc playing you get a feel for how well it is made, and have to look at it up close. For instance that CJ gear is very pretty to behold up close. So when I'm using a remote and the view of the device is from a distance and I'm only looking at the info on the screen or the illumination of the lights all of that reinforcement of good quality gear is diminished. So using a remote I'd just as soon all of the gear is hidden. I also think the readouts should be on the remote to facilitate that. Which of course is the case for items you can control from your phone or tablet. You'll still miss the tactile pleasure, but you do anyway with remotes.

Some old gear had options for wired remotes and a box by your listening chair or sofa. Those were better because there is still some tactile pleasure.
 
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MattHooper

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I find using a remote, even a very nice remote, diminishes pride of ownership. I think it is tactile and visual. If you walk over to adjust volume, switch sources or start a disc playing you get a feel for how well it is made, and have to look at it up close. For instance that CJ gear is very pretty to behold up close. So when I'm using a remote and the view of the device is from a distance and I'm only looking at the info on the screen or the illumination of the lights all of that reinforcement of good quality gear is diminished. So using a remote I'd just as soon all of the gear is hidden. I also think the readouts should be on the remote to facilitate that. Which of course is the case for items you can control from your phone or tablet. You'll still miss the tactile pleasure, but you do anyway with remotes.

Some old gear had options for wired remotes and a box by your listening chair or sofa. Those were better because there is still some tactile pleasure.

Ah, now I understand.

I had a Meitner DAC that had a wired remote which ended in a nice little wood slab with a volume dial, to operate from the listening position. That was nice (and partially an inspiration for my custom remote).
 

wadude

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I find using a remote, even a very nice remote, diminishes pride of ownership. I think it is tactile and visual. If you walk over to adjust volume, switch sources or start a disc playing you get a feel for how well it is made, and have to look at it up close. For instance that CJ gear is very pretty to behold up close. So when I'm using a remote and the view of the device is from a distance and I'm only looking at the info on the screen or the illumination of the lights all of that reinforcement of good quality gear is diminished. So using a remote I'd just as soon all of the gear is hidden. I also think the readouts should be on the remote to facilitate that. Which of course is the case for items you can control from your phone or tablet. You'll still miss the tactile pleasure, but you do anyway with remotes.

Some old gear had options for wired remotes and a box by your listening chair or sofa. Those were better because there is still some tactile pleasure.
I like a remote for the TV and getting up and sitting down for the HiFi.
 

Philbo King

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I like a remote for the TV and getting up and sitting down for the HiFi.
A remote is indispensable to me for watching any TV with commercials. I have my AVR set so the mute button knocks the level down by 20 dB, making it less intolerable.
 

pseudoid

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Mart68

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I go through the schedule and tape anything worth watching (quick task these days as there's so little) then I fast -forward through the ads.
 

Leeken

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I think most audiophiles are buying the experience of some golden eared reviewer with lots of flowery language,or a foot tapping salesman and imagining how each pound spent makes everything exponentially better than anything cheaper.
In my next life I’m going to build and sell high end hifi,easy life that is.
 

notsodeadlizard

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I don't think this question has anything to do with an "audiophilia" especially because there is no common understanding of the meaning of this term..
And the answers are obvious:

Buying things does not give you any experience other than the experience of buying things.
Using complex things does not give you any experience other than the experience of using complex things, but because complex things are always made so that they are easy to use, you will not gain much experience that way.

Buying a Ferrari doesn't make you a Le Mans racer.
Buying a Leica with a set of formidable lenses won't make you an Ansel Adams or a Cartier-Bresson.
If you buy a Stradivarius violin, you will not even become a violinist from this.
etc.

The conclusion will be ridiculous:

If you bought a Chinese DAС for 100 dollars, and he bought a high-end DAС for $10.000, neither you nor he gained any experience, he just can painlessly afford a DAС for $10.000, because no one buys completely optional audio equipment beyond their means, first of all, wealthy people don't do that (this is also why they are wealthy).

Unless ... fabulously expensive things that are produced in scanty volumes tend to turn into collectible objects over time.
Look at the prices of mammoth-ancient Mark Levinson amplifiers (by the way, these are very interesting amplifiers to this day, whatever Mark Levinson himself was).
And cheap consumer goods are very quickly sent to a landfill.

However, this is also banal and also has nothing to do with any experience other than everyday experience.
:(
 

caught gesture

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I think most audiophiles are buying the experience of some golden eared reviewer with lots of flowery language,or a foot tapping salesman and imagining how each pound spent makes everything exponentially better than anything cheaper.
In my next life I’m going to build and sell high end hifi,easy life that is.
But then in your next life you’d be reborn as an animal, probably a snake!
 

wadude

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Buying things and experiences with hopes of filling the "void." At the same time, I'm listening to some tunes and enjoying the people in my life.
 

GGroch

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Good Thread.
We know what Things are, but today my Kindle recommendations pointed me to a book by a cognitive scientist that challenges the common view of what Experiences are.

In his 2023 book: The Experience Machine: How Our Minds Predict and Shape Reality, Andy Clark writes that we think we see and hear the outside world directly, but most of our experience is created by the brain, meaning its best guesses are based on limited information as to what might really be out there.

This concept is not new, expectation bias and the incredible power of placebos are examples many here understand. I have not read the book yet, but a review in the Guardian points to a study where 44 students who were listening to pure white noise were asked to press a button when they heard Bing Crosby's White Christmas through their headsets. The headsets played nothing but white noise, still 1/3 of the students pressed the button at least once.

Another review writes: None of us simply records a stable set of facts from the world around us; in fact, we create a version of that world deeply informed by personal history. Among the practical applications for Clark’s insights are treatments for chronic pain that target patients’ experience of their suffering. Clark offers insightful commentary on tangential matters such as how ceremonial practices can contribute to feelings of well-being and how digital technologies have boosted our predictive capacities and effectively become extensions of our minds.

So, what does this have to do with home HiFi? For one thing, objective performance measurement may be far less important than we assume relative to creating an enjoyable audio experience. For us scientific types, reading Amir's objective tests puts them into our brain's prediction process, and probably has more impact on our experience than the measured performance itself. It also helps explain the persistence of Vinyl records and vacuum tubes despite their performance disadvantages.

I do not mean this as an ad. I have only just ordered the book which Amazon has reduced to $4 on Kindle today. I think the topic is relevant to understanding audio science.
 
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Rottmannash

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Good Thread.
We know what Things are, but today my Kindle recommendations pointed me to a book by a cognitive scientist that challenges the common view of what Experiences are.

In his 2023 book: The Experience Machine: How Our Minds Predict and Shape Reality, Andy Clark writes that we think we see and hear the outside world directly, but most of our experience is created by the brain, meaning its best guesses are based on limited information as to what might really be out there.

This concept is not new, expectation bias and the incredible power of placebo effects are examples many here understand. I have not read the book yet, but a review in the Guardian points to a study where 44 students who were listening to pure white noise were asked to press a button when they heard Bing Crosby's White Christmas through their headsets. The headsets played nothing but white noise, still 1/3 of the students pressed the button at least once.

Another review writes: None of us simply records a stable set of facts from the world around us; in fact, we create a version of that world deeply informed by personal history. Among the practical applications for Clark’s insights are treatments for chronic pain that target patients’ experience of their suffering. Clark offers insightful commentary on tangential matters such as how ceremonial practices can contribute to feelings of well-being and how digital technologies have boosted our predictive capacities and effectively become extensions of our minds.

So, what does this have to do with home HiFi? For one thing, objective performance measurement may be far less important than we assume relative to creating an enjoyable audio experience. For us scientific types, reading Amir's objective tests puts them into our brain's prediction process, and probably has more impact on our experience than the measured performance itself. It also helps explain the persistence of Vinyl records and vacuum tubes despite their performance disadvantages.

I do not mean this as an ad. I have only just ordered the book which Amazon has reduced to $4 on Kindle today. I think the topic is relevant to understanding audio science.
I have the ebook if anyone wants to read it.
 

Mart68

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For us scientific types, reading Amir's objective tests puts them into our brain's prediction process, and probably has more impact on our experience than the measured performance itself.
There's certainly some truth in that - but then you listen to some 'designed by ear' loudspeakers trying to reproduce a complex mix and you realise there is some real benefit to using properly engineered equipment.
 

GGroch

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There's certainly some truth in that - but then you listen to some 'designed by ear' loudspeakers trying to reproduce a complex mix and you realize there is some real benefit to using properly engineered equipment.
I absolutely agree. Based on my experience, high performing products, particularly speakers and headphones, improve my enjoyment even if I have not read objective reviews. For me, simply the concept of "properly engineered equipment" also improves my experience.

My experience is not universal. I inherited an old hand crank Victrola console from a relative who was born in the 1890s. I was surprised to see that 3/4 of his 78s were of classical recordings. Complex wide dynamics orchestral music is entirely unlistenable for me on that old gear. I can't get past the poor recordings, terrible S/N, distorted dynamics, high distortion on loud passages, not to mention the constant pops/clicks. Still, I know my relative listened to them spellbound for hours with his family treasuring the experience.

It is not that they did not know what good sound was. Most small cities in my area had orchestras back then and visits from touring classical artists were very common.
 
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Mart68

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I absolutely agree. Based on my experience, high performing products, particularly speakers and headphones, improve my enjoyment even if I have not read objective reviews. For me, simply the concept of "properly engineered equipment" also improves my experience.

My experience is not universal. I inherited an old hand crank Victrola console from a relative who was born in the 1890s. I was surprised to see that 3/4 of his 78s were of classical recordings. Complex wide dynamics orchestral music is entirely unlistenable for me on that old gear. I can't get past the poor recordings, terrible S/N, distorted dynamics, high distortion on loud passages, not to mention the constant pops/clicks. Still, I know my relative listened to them spellbound for hours with his family treasuring the experience.

It is not that they did not know what good sound was. Most small cities in my area had orchestras back then and visits from touring classical artists were very common.
yes a friend of mine has an old HMV he uses to listen to some 78s (think he inherited both) and it is truly a diabolical listening experience in every respect.

For me it is the sins of commission I can't live with. I can happily enjoy music from the 3 inch paper cone built into the PC tower under my desk as it does nothing wrong. Okay when I listen to the same tunes on my home system I realise how much of the content is missing entirely, but the PC speaker never sounds unpleasant.
 
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