AUDIOPHILES: Are We Buying "THINGS" or "EXPERIENCES?"

[MattHooper]

I'm fully aware that my post was somewhat provocative, and I did not by any means try to claim that every single audiophile is just looking for prestige. However, in most groups of hobbyists - not just among HiFi enthusiasts - there is certain amount of "psychological group pressure" to get kind of stuff that is perceived as desirable by many of the thought leaders of the group. Some group members are more susceptible to such feelings and some are totally ignoring them. There is not necessarily any conspiracy behind it, or even conscious effort in the group to create such psychological pressure, but to some extent it usually does exist. Some equipment manufacturers/dealers are clearly using this to their commercial purposes, and some hobbyist groups are either knowingly, or unknowingly, acting as tools for them.

Every HiFi forum has their darlings. On some forum, a member can be sure to get much positive feedback when he reports that he has just upgraded his Audio Note amplifier and DAC from level 5 to level 6 (Audio Note has really mastered the idea of sophistication levels based purchasing ladders) On ASR one can expect the same by having Benchmark amps & DAC plus Revel speakers for example, or maybe an RME ADI-2 and Genelec 8361s. (not that there's anything wrong with them).

I certainly don't deny there are such trends among audiophiles - equipment that gets hyped, or maybe a member who ends up influencing the purchase of some gear. But I feel you are misdiagnosing the psychology IF you are still saying the motivation is to gain prestige among other audiophiles. From what I see, by far the strongest motivation for most audiophiles in those forums is getting the sound they want. So a "darling" new speaker may become hyped and popular, but the reason it does is that many audiophiles become convinced they may get better sound, or the sound they want, with the new device. Same if they felt an individual member had a good track record or experience with gear, and was super enthusiastic about some new speaker or whatever.

Audiophiles are too diverse in taste to bother spending one's hard earned cash trying to please. I happen to think MBL 101E speakers look really cool and would love to own them, but plenty of audiophiles think they look stupid - or that omnis are just a parlour trick. Wouldn't matter: it's what I want, not what they want. And I don't know any audiophiles who think differently.

 

[MattHooper]

What about pride of ownership? That doesn't require/pursue confirmation by others but by self and I have read about lots of evidence, direct or between the lines, that for many it is a driving force. To be fair, it's part of the consumer society we've been brought up into...

I guess it depends on what one specifically means by "pride of ownership." I suspect it will vary among audiophiles. I have had a feeling of high satisfaction owning certain gear - the build quality and or/that it represents in my mind high performance, it looks and sounds much better *to me* than any "off the shelf thing" the average consumer would purchase, etc. But as you say those are personal satisfactions: I don't expect them to translate to how other non-audiophiles people feel about the gear. And I do have some level of "pride" when in audiophile forums we are sharing descriptions or photos of our gear - just as some others clearly do. But, again, the reasons when making a purchase is nonetheless to please me, not an impossible attempt to please other people.

 

[MaxBuck]

Whenever this business of "pride of ownership" comes up, my brain fogs over a bit.

To the extent I have pride about anything in my life, it's entirely unrelated to anything I own. It may be accomplishments, it may be care for less fortunate people, it may even be living life ethically (as I define it). I'm not proud of any of my material possessions, though.

 

[bodhi]

Whenever this business of "pride of ownership" comes up, my brain fogs over a bit.

Agree. I mean it's basically looking through some reviews, ordering generic mass produced things online and connecting the equipment with cables.

 

[Purité Audio]

If manufacturers clearly stated that this milled from solid/trickle down etc component looks really smart but technically it is no better than the 10X cheaper alternative that would be ok, sadly they don’t say that.
Keith

 

[Aleksandar RS]

If manufacturers clearly stated that this milled from solid/trickle down etc component looks really smart but technically it is no better than the 10X cheaper alternative that would be ok, sadly they don’t say that.
Keith

If my life depended on some medical device, I would definitely buy one that has Siemens, Panasonic, Philips components and not some third-rate ones 10x cheaper even though they have the same specifications. I accept that the comparison is extreme, but I would apply the same logic to some audio component.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I guess it depends on what one specifically means by "pride of ownership." I suspect it will vary among audiophiles. I have had a feeling of high satisfaction owning certain gear - the build quality and or/that it represents in my mind high performance, it looks and sounds much better *to me* than any "off the shelf thing" the average consumer would purchase, etc. But as you say those are personal satisfactions: I don't expect them to translate to how other non-audiophiles people feel about the gear. And I do have some level of "pride" when in audiophile forums we are sharing descriptions or photos of our gear - just as some others clearly do. But, again, the reasons when making a purchase is nonetheless to please me, not an impossible attempt to please other people.

One of the things that diminished my value of pride in ownership was the implementation of remote controls combined with going to an all digital sourced system. I did not foresee that and only noticed it had happened after a few years. My ultimate thing now would be a totally hidden device that I can remotely get to do everything I want with ease. It never was for me having someone come in and say something about the gear on my shelf (though it was nice when it happened). It was more of how it made me feel to see it when I interacted with it physically.

 

[Open Mind Audio]

I think our hobby attracts both kinds. Throughout audiophilia, there are definitely people attracted to owning the thing, and attachment to the thing can sometimes supersede all. I try to focus on the experience and let that guide my enjoyment. Like anyone else, I can lapse into materialism, thing-attachment, or just addiction to online information at ASR -- but I try to listen to the better angels and recall it's all, ultimately, about the experience of listening to music.

 

[Purité Audio]

If my life depended on some medical device, I would definitely buy one that has Siemens, Panasonic, Philips components and not some third-rate ones 10x cheaper even though they have the same specifications. I accept that the comparison is extreme, but I would apply the same logic to some audio component.

I don’t believe analogies serve any useful purpose, we aren’t discussing life saving equipment but a stereo.
High-end advertising implies that alongside the smart case there is improved sound quality, Amir has shown that this is simply not the case, I have no problem with manufacturers making smart kit, but I do take issue with the marketing, it has led you for example to believe that spending more equals better sound.

Keith

 

[bodhi]

I accept that the comparison is extreme, but I would apply the same logic to some audio component.

Sorry what? Do you have any idea how many products and services you buy daily, that directly affect your health and general well-being and from which you pay, if not as little as possible, then only as much as is absolutely necessary? Do you go to the most expensive dentist, fly only first class, use the most premium tires in your luxury car, eat mostly beef tenderloin and organic vegetables, walk in 2000€ shoes... No you don't, that would get crazy expensive for relatively little benefit, right?

But when choosing a DAC for your home stereo system you think it's only logical to spend 10x for differences you know science says aren't there and whose existence you refuse to prove to yourself with a controlled test, rather maintaining a weird belief system in high end magic?

The comparison is not extreme, it's forced and silly.

 

[Aleksandar RS]

Sorry what? Do you have any idea how many products and services you buy daily, that directly affect your health and general well-being and from which you pay, if not as little as possible, then only as much as is absolutely necessary? Do you go to the most expensive dentist, fly only first class, use the most premium tires in your luxury car, eat mostly beef tenderloin and organic vegetables, walk in 2000€ shoes... No you don't, that would get crazy expensive for relatively little benefit, right?

But when choosing a DAC for your home stereo system you think it's only logical to spend 10x for differences you know science says aren't there and whose existence you refuse to prove to yourself with a controlled test, rather maintaining a weird belief system in high end magic?

The comparison is not extreme, it's forced and silly.

In this case, I thought it was clear, it was about the reliability of the built-in components, not the sound quality.

 

[Aleksandar RS]

I don’t believe analogies serve any useful purpose, we aren’t discussing life saving equipment but a stereo.
High-end advertising implies that alongside the smart case there is improved sound quality, Amir has shown that this is simply not the case, I have no problem with manufacturers making smart kit, but I do take issue with the marketing, it has led you for example to believe that spending more equals better sound.

Keith

I agree with what you say, but I didn't mean the sound quality, but the reliability of the built-in components. It's also important to me, besides top-notch support, looks and a few other things. And they can only get that from companies with a great reputation in the audio industry. At least I think so. I would not discuss the sound quality.

 

[bodhi]

In this case, I thought it was clear, it was about the reliability of the built-in components, not the sound quality.

So, are the components more reliable? Or the other benefits?

 

[fpitas]

Agree. I mean it's basically looking through some reviews, ordering generic mass produced things online and connecting the equipment with cables.

Overpriced cables

 

[Aleksandar RS]

So, are the components more reliable? Or the other benefits?

As for the reliability of the devices, I would say from experience that there are differences. Most of the technical things (now I'm not talking only about audio) that I bought cheaply (from various companies whose names I had never heard of before) lasted up to 2-3 years. I don't think we should even talk about the quality of support. That, as I mentioned, is my experience, it is possible, of course, that there are different ones.

 

[Purité Audio]

All electronics display a bathtub curve when it comes to failure, either quite near the beginning or after a long period.
I haven’t really noticed price being an indicator of failure, some brands ( thank you RME ) never seem to go wrong.
Keith

 

[DVDdoug]

Somewhere I heard (or read), "People don't want a drill, they want holes." But I suppose you could be a drillophile and lots of guys to like to collect tools!

 

[Aleksandar RS]

All electronics display a bathtub curve when it comes to failure, either quite near the beginning or after a long period.
I haven’t really noticed price being an indicator of failure, some brands ( thank you RME ) never seem to go wrong.
Keith

Not directly the price, but the name of the company behind the product I think can guarantee a certain level of quality. As for RME, in my opinion, it is a very professional and respected company. In addition to the quality of their devices, their view that MQA does nothing good for sound quality and their devices will still continue to be non-Mqa, is to be respected, regardless of what you think of MQA. Although this will certainly reduce the number of devices sold, they firmly stand behind their position. This is not the case with some companies that publicly declare that MQA does not bring improvement, but produce MQA DACs because customers demand it.

 

[Jflijohn]

In the early 70’s my best friends uncle came home from Viet Nam and moved in to my buddies basement. He had a McIntosh setup with headphones. The source was FM but back in the day S.F. Bay Area FM was pretty memorable and a very strong signal. He was very gracious about letting us listen to his Mac.
This set me for life on my love for Macs. They may not always be the best but they were my first best and still remain that way to me.
Today I have both vintage Marantz (2270) and a full on 350 watt McIntosh setup in my garage with both digital and lots of vinyl. It has become a huge draw for friends and neighbors walking their dogs (I also keep chew toys in case the dogs lose focus on the great sounds). I guess it doesn’t hurt that I also have a beer fridge that’s always full.
Two cases of the expense prompting the experience and being well worth it.

 

[MattHooper]

One of the things that diminished my value of pride in ownership was the implementation of remote controls combined with going to an all digital sourced system. I did not foresee that and only noticed it had happened after a few years. My ultimate thing now would be a totally hidden device that I can remotely get to do everything I want with ease. It never was for me having someone come in and say something about the gear on my shelf (though it was nice when it happened). It was more of how it made me feel to see it when I interacted with it physically.

Do I understand that you have been disappointed to still have to interact with remote controls even though you've gone digital, and would prefer not to bother with the pesky things?

(And if so, doesn't using a smartphone/ipad or whatever mostly get around that, if you are all digital?)

Just trying to understand exactly what bugs you.

For me pride of ownership...or really just the pleasure of using a system...definitely extends to a remote control. If I have to use one, it's the thing I'll be interacting with most, so any crappy ergonomics or an ugly device or bad "hand feel" detracts.

So for instance it's quite a disappointment to interact with what might be a beautifully designed amp or preamp or whatever, and then interact with some cruddy plastic remote with tiny buttons.

Also, since, like most of us, I'm on a computer much of the time and have screens tugging at my attention all day, including my iphone, I like taking a break from interacting yet again with a computer or phone to listen to music. And no remote I own, or iphone, gives me the tactile pleasure I'd prefer.

For all those reasons, I'm currently having a custom remote control built for my system, which will operate both my CJ tube preamp and Benchmark LA4 preamp. It will be a beautiful slab of ergonomically molded wood, with a physical volume knob that can not only do volume but, with different presses of the knob, send various commands (e.g. "mute/dim...or switch between the Benchmark and CJ premp, switch inputs in either, etc).

I'm frankly sick of most remote control options for music and I want that really basic, physical tactile feeling of using a volume knob...but from the comfort of my listening sofa. This hopefully will do the trick.