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Audiophile vs Pro Speakers

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussions' started by watchnerd, Oct 1, 2017.

  1. Fitzcaraldo215

    Fitzcaraldo215 Addicted to Fun and Learning

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    It depends on what you mean by "image", a word that is not precisely self-defining. I can only guess at exactly what you mean.

    There are numerous attributes and characteristics of the spatial qualities we hear, and we can only describe, assess and report them subjectively. I am not about to attempt to list them all here in a science forum, because it might seem too uncontrollably and crazy subjective. They are assembled closer to the brain end of our binaural ears plus brain hearing system, and, hence, they fall into the category of psychoacoustics.

    I feel I hear much more at an orchestral concert than a basic sense of direction, as in L R and in between. Among many other descriptive attributes, there is the quality of envelopment of the listener in the sound, which is enabled by the reflective hall acoustic. Toole also cites that, and it is one reason he likes Mch reproduction at home for classical music. I like that myself, and I prefer to sit at some distance in the hall - typically about 2/3 back - in order to get a mix of direct stage and hall sound I prefer. It is similar for solo or chamber concerts for me. But, to each, his or her own.
     
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  2. oivavoi

    oivavoi Senior Member

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    Good point. Agree. What I meant is rather the "pinpointing" thing - the ability to place defined instruments and soloists at a particular place at the stage. I almost never have that experience when attending concerts. As for the rest, the sense of spaciousness and envelopment - completely agree.
     
  3. Fitzcaraldo215

    Fitzcaraldo215 Addicted to Fun and Learning

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    I tend to agree about pinpointing in live concerts, though our visual sense and seeing the actual performers makes this unimportant to me live. I do think that recordings strive for greater pinpointing, often augmented by spot mikes, partly because we do not have the visual cues accompanying the audible ones.
     
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  4. fas42

    fas42 Major Contributor

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    Sorry, but if something happens, and people experience behaviours - that's the reality. Science doen't dictate how the universe works - it observes, and then forms explanations based on what is seen.
     
  5. fas42

    fas42 Major Contributor

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    With the the standard of playback I speak of, you get both: it's trivial to "see" where every sound source is, there is an acoustic "ball" around each item that is part of a fancy mix - and you can point to it being, right, there ... ; and, the sense of immersion and envelopment is fully realised.

    Which makes home playback "superior" in many instances, compared to live. I remember decades ago then going to the "real thing" ... and, it was somewhat disappointing on a number of occasions - where was the punch, the sense of bigness? It was all a bit too distant; not enough involvement ...
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  6. j_j

    j_j Technical Expert

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    Now you need to compare it to the reality.
     
  7. fas42

    fas42 Major Contributor

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    Well, in my reality the clear, observable behaviours are the perceived illusions I've mentioned many times - a system that manifest this behaviour stops being capable of such if the quality drops below a certain, currently undefinable level; it reverts to the standard equivalent to what Linkwitz describes in his description of good stereo. The difference between the two qualities of presentation is so distinctive, that anyone who has experienced it understands exactly what one is talking about.
     
  8. j_j

    j_j Technical Expert

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    There you go again, "anyone who has experienced ..."...

    Now provide evidence. I just explained how your "solution" works. You may PREFER it. You get to PREFER it, but now you've claimed a universal.

    SO prove it.
     
  9. Wombat

    Wombat Member

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    I agree. It seems to me that that the universe works in a predictable manner. Science works to reveal that predictability and continues toward refining it. Subjectivism is worth scientific consideration but is not as disciplined or reliable as other studies.
     
  10. fas42

    fas42 Major Contributor

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    As a first response, I'll point to a fellow traveller - who "proved" it to quite a wide range of listeners, quite some time ago: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/105590-measurements-word-post1260797.html. His "solution" was to make the speaker work superbly well, be so benign as a load to the electronics chain, that the system delivered the goods without even worrying about the things that I do - his belief was, is, that the speaker itself was the "magic" ingredient, because that's what he personally worked on. My path was very different, but with comparable final results - so I have a different perpective.
     
  11. j_j

    j_j Technical Expert

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    Again, you've failed to demonstrate your universal claim. Sorry.

    You've also avoided any discussion of the radiation pattern of the system in question.

    Making a loudspeaker have a decent impedance is not particularly hard, after all. I seem to be able to do it without bursting into a sweat.
     
  12. fas42

    fas42 Major Contributor

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    Note that I said,
    There are two factors at play here: the quality of the sound being produced by the surfaces of the speaker drivers; and the ability of the individual's ear/brain to register this illusion. With regard to the latter, I would be amazed if this is universal, I would be certain that there is a substantial percentage of the populace who could always detect the presence of the speaker - however, if there is a significant number of people who can enjoy the optimum style of presentation, that alone makes it worthy of investigation. So far, I haven't come across anyone who listens to a system in this high state of tune who finds issues with it - it creates an immersive, enveloping sound, which can be running at very high volumes, and people are relaxed, at their ease talking to each other at the same time - they enjoy listening, without feeling that something is hammering away at them, demanding their attention.

    The radiation pattern of the speaker has never been relevant, to me. If the quality of the setup was borderline to the necessary standard, then I'm sure that the directivity of the sound would be very important - but I always aim for well beyond that level; how the sound radiates then matters not one iota - I can literally stand behind the speaker, so that then, yes, there is zero direct sound, but I can still "see" the presentation - if I now walk around to the front of the speaker that sense doesn't subjectively change; there is now just a higher 'intensity' to the experience. This mirrors how one can hear, say, a piano in an adjoining room; walk into that room, and go right up to the instrument as it keeps playing - the subjective impression is identical, if I do this with a capable playback configuration.
     
  13. Sal1950

    Sal1950 Major Contributor The Chicago Crusher

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    Are we feeding the Troll again? I thought he was locked up under the bridge?
     
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  14. j_j

    j_j Technical Expert

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    In other words, exactly a sound with no coherent time cues.
    Even though at this point it is trivially obvious that the lack of a strong direct path is what you like?

    Really?

    It's simple, I think. You do not like strong direct signals, and you want the time cues in a signal to be erased, diffused, what-have-you. That's what you regard as "quality".

    That's fine, YOU get to like that.

    Not everyone does.

    You've learned to understand this particular soundfield that lacks one of the most important soundfield cues. Good for you.

    But don't claim it's accuracy. It's not.

    One would think you could use this guidance to find speakers that satisfy you.
     
  15. BE718

    BE718 Major Contributor forum experimenter

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    Im not seeing this, the individual in question is on ignore, yes I finally learnt. Nothing to be gained by engaging with him. It will be the same old nebulous statements "sufficient quality" etc etc.
     
  16. Old Listener

    Old Listener Active Member

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    Is there anything further to be said about

    "Audiophile vs Pro Speakers".

    I hope so since the subject is relevant to me. I've been in a holding pattern for months waiting to see reviews of the JBL 705P/708P before making a decision. Two other active studio monitors are contenders. The KEH LS50W is a possibility as is the Audioengine HDP6.

     
  17. fas42

    fas42 Major Contributor

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    Do I interpret that as meaning that recording playback should always sound distinctively different from live, acoustic playing of musicians - that if one could mistake the reproduction as being live music then it indicates that the replay is not accurate?
     
  18. Sal1950

    Sal1950 Major Contributor The Chicago Crusher

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    You can always tell when a newbie gets caught in these circular arguments over delusional rantings who he must be referring to. ;)
     
  19. j_j

    j_j Technical Expert

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    I have no idea what you interpret my post as saying. Since you reject the very basis of acoustics by your dismissal of speaker radiation pattern, there really isn't any common ground here.

    Maybe you should just agree to disagree with science.
     
  20. oivavoi

    oivavoi Senior Member

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    Getting back to the subject of the thread: If we restrict "pro speakers" to "speakers made for studios" and not "speakers made for stadions", it becomes more managable. Are there differences that are relevant? The ones I can think of: Some studio monitors (but not all) are tuned to be flat, whereas many hifi speakers are tuned somewhat warmer, with more bass. Unless one wants to use dsp or an equalizer in the system, this may make some studio monitors sound too bright for some listeners. Furthermore, the dispersion pattern of specific studio monitors might not be the dispersion pattern you want for your home system. Some studio monitors (again not all) are not made with wide and even dispersion in mind, as they are primarily listened to in the near field and/or in heavily treated studios. In the home, some listeners prefer wide dispersion, either because one doesn't want a narrow sweetspot, or because one prefers a larger sense of envelopment and spaciousness, which often come with wider dispersion (but sometimes at the expense of precise imaging). That said, I don't think any of those would be concerns with the 705p/708p, as you can equalize them, and their dispersion is relatively controlled, and not super-narrow. Haven't heard them though.
     

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