Audiophile vs Pro Speakers

[RayDunzl]

The topic being Pro vs Audiophile:

I had the opportunity to listen to some aged rockers at an outdoor Seafood Festival last weekend.

I was the only one I saw with my fingers in my ears, listened to one tune. The next was going to be the Mercedes Benz song.

It was loud (4 QSC amps next to the soundboard behind the triam stack where the soundman was admiring his manicure and the roadie drinking beers).

Sounded clean enough, did I say loud? I'll guess peaks >120dB range near the stacks with RMS close behind.

Anyway, it was loud, and without apparent strain.

Couldn't tell what the speaker elements were, due to fabric over the fronts.

Kinda loud, too.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Well, it depends. Depends on one's preferences, I guess. For me, speaker systems which are calibrated only towards the sweetspot feel increasingly unnatural. It breaks the spell for me when I move out of the precise soundfield by standing up or moving one meter to the left. Again, it's not like that when I listen to real instruments. I can't move "out" of the precise soundfield when I listen acoustic instruments. Moving around only changes the perspective (and the timbre I hear).

But there's always a catch. For the most precise imaging, a defined sweetspot is always necessary, I believe. I just came home from auditioning the Beolab 50s. In narrow mode, they are stunning speakers. Magnificient. Nothing more to say, really. But would I be happy with them at home, in the unlikely case that a) I could afford them, b) I could convince my girlfriend that we should invest more in new speakers than in renovating the house? I'm not sure. Standing up, the spell was broken. And for me, that's kind of a downer. Which means that the speakers that interest me the most are either line sources or CBTs, oversized electrostats, enormous horns, tall dipoles à la Linkwitz 521, or omnis - all speakers that can project a soundstage over a much larger area.

Ditch the girlfriend! Sound is soooo much more important and much cheaper in the long run.

But, note that even omnis do necessarily not project a wider soundstage when you sit to the side. That is more a function of room lateral reflelections than omni speakers. And, you said yourself the Beolabs needed to be in narrow mode to be "stunning". If you are talking about some reasonable accuracy of the image delivered by a stereo or Mch system, no speakers deliver that to every point in the room.

 

[c1ferrari]

But there's always a catch. For the most precise imaging, a defined sweetspot is always necessary, I believe. Standing up, the spell was broken. And for me, that's kind of a downer. Which means that the speakers that interest me the most are either line sources or CBTs, oversized electrostats, enormous horns, tall dipoles à la Linkwitz 521, or omnis - all speakers that can project a soundstage over a much larger area.

I rather enjoy line sources, too. It's not unusual for me to detect driver integration anomalies, upon moving vertically, with conventional loudspeakers. I listen to music standing as well as sitting.

 

[c1ferrari]

I was the only one I saw with my fingers in my ears, listened to one tune.
It was loud (4 QSC amps next to the soundboard behind the triam stack where the soundman was admiring his manicure and the roadie drinking beers).
Sounded clean enough, did I say loud? I'll guess peaks >120dB range near the stacks with RMS close behind.
Anyway, it was loud, and without apparent strain.
Kinda loud, too.

No audiophile earplugs? Seriously, I'm interested in earplugs that attenuate sound similarly, if not identically, across the entire audio frequency band.
Do these exist? Recommendations?

 

[Blumlein 88]

No audiophile earplugs? Seriously, I'm interested in earplugs that attenuate sound similarly, if not identically, across the entire audio frequency band.
Do these exist? Recommendations?

They do exist. Some are made for live music sound guys.

https://www.etymotic.com/consumer/hearing-protection/erme.html

https://www.etymotic.com/consumer/hearing-protection/erme.html

http://blog.sonicbids.com/best-earplugs-for-musicians

The Decibullz look interesting. The others are supposed to not have deleterious effects upon music. The Decibullz is notable for being able to custom fit them yourself.

 

[c1ferrari]

Yes, I'll see if I can find some. They do exist. Some are made for live music sound guys.

https://www.etymotic.com/consumer/hearing-protection/erme.html

http://blog.sonicbids.com/best-earplugs-for-musicians

The first on the list look interesting. The others are supposed to have an effect not deleterious effects upon music. The first is notable for being able to custom fit them yourself.

Cool -- thanks, Blumlein. I went to a show in CA where at least one vendor was taking impressions of ears for plugs.

 

[Thomas savage]

Cool -- thanks, Blumlein. I went to a show in CA where at least one vendor was taking impressions of ears for plugs.

There’s hearing specialist in most towns in the uk that offer this, I’m also very intrested. I only became aware of them a few months ago myself.

 

[fas42]

I don't see how any pair (stereo) of speakers could not have the 'spell' broken when you move out of the sweet spot (central line) since the phase of the two direct signals will be lost.

I suppose the exception is when the central listening position is already blurred by higher level reflections* (my little JBL LSR 308 seems to provide that**).

Which is why people have trouble groking that a better presentation is possible - I've had multiple systems just using stereo speakers over the years slip in and out the SQ standard necessary for full "spell" rendition, constantly. Most of the time, the standard wasn't good enough to ace it - but that didn't bother me, because all I had to do was try a bit harder to secure the full illusion ... it's something like, you have a car that can do 200mph in the right environment - but you don't have to go out every day to confirm that it's possible - it's very satisfying to know that it is always obtainable, if the desire to experience it builds up enough.

Phase is only part of the story - the ear/brain can fully compensate, on the fly, if the data is good enough - it's no more complicated than that ...

 

[RayDunzl]

...a related post...

Further Experiment:

Set a 1m delay into one channel of the headphones.

Apply phase reversal to one channel.

Marginal difference, like neither setting is right.

---

Now I remember, that's the effect we noticed (a while back) with the JBLs, when trying to decide what was wrong with them in here at the 10 foot listening position. In or out of phase (no added delay), marginal difference in the 'image' such that it was.

The ML provided a definite right/wrong under the same test.

 

[RayDunzl]

No audiophile earplugs?

No...

Didn't go there to listen.

Went to see what it was about, since it was nearby.

Expensive plates of carnival-side-show seafood and crawdads, with a few burgers and dogs for the more cuisinically declined.

We took the money we didn't spend on two plates there (coulda been $50 easily) and bought our own Seafood Festival ingredients at the grocery, and are still enjoying parts of it a week later.

I had a nice Jumbo Shrimp Cocktail for breakfast, today... Clam Rolls (sandwiches) for lunch... Now thinking dinner...

---

My emergency plugs are a wet wad of soggy toilet tissue, more over-ear-canal than in... Didn't see a toilet near the bandstand.

Entertainment:
11:30 – 1pm Luis Garcia
1:30 – 3:00 American Song Box
3:30 – 5:00 Kozmic Pearl
5:30 – 7:00 Spy vs Spy
7:30 – 9:00 Soul Circus Cowboys

It was Kosmic Pearl playing while I was paying attention.

 

[j_j]

I got the impression JJ meant your seat at the concert hall

Ayup.

 

[Sal1950]

I don't see how any pair (stereo) of speakers could not have the 'spell' broken when you move out of the sweet spot (central line) since the phase of the two direct signals will be lost.

Just ask Crazy Frank, he'll tell ya all about it.

 

[oivavoi]

Ditch the girlfriend! Sound is soooo much more important and much cheaper in the long run.

But, note that even omnis do necessarily not project a wider soundstage when you sit to the side. That is more a function of room lateral reflelections than omni speakers. And, you said yourself the Beolabs needed to be in narrow mode to be "stunning". If you are talking about some reasonable accuracy of the image delivered by a stereo or Mch system, no speakers deliver that to every point in the room.

Agreed. The question is how much it deteriorates when moving around.

Concerning the Beolabs: Their directivity is much more even wih frequency in narrow than in wide mode, so it is to be expected that they sound better in narrow. Also, they were crammed into two corners when I heard them, and in that case narrow directivity is obviously a vastly superior option. But yeah, focused and narrow directivity has some alluring aspects, no doubt. My experience is that the speakers I like the most are complete opposites when it comes to directivity: I like speakers with a very focused and narrow directivity (Beolab 50s and 90s, Kiis, well-equalized large horns, etc), and I also like dipoles and omnis. The key is that the directivity is even with frequency, I suspect.

But this is slightly off-topic when talking about pro vs hifi speakers...

 

[c1ferrari]

Further Experiment:

Set a 1m delay into one channel of the headphones.

Apply phase reversal to one channel.

Marginal difference, like neither setting is right.

---

Now I remember, that's the effect we noticed (a while back) with the JBLs, when trying to decide what was wrong with them in here at the 10 foot listening position. In or out of phase (no added delay), marginal difference in the 'image' such that it was.

The ML provided a definite right/wrong under the same test.

Say, do you think the speaker(s) - JBL's- may be miswired...polarity reversed, possibly?

 

[c1ferrari]

No...

Didn't go there to listen.

Went to see what it was about, since it was nearby.

Expensive plates of carnival-side-show seafood and crawdads, with a few burgers and dogs for the more cuisinically declined.

We took the money we didn't spend on two plates there (coulda been $50 easily) and bought our own Seafood Festival ingredients at the grocery, and are still enjoying parts of it a week later.

I had a nice Jumbo Shrimp Cocktail for breakfast, today... Clam Rolls (sandwiches) for lunch... Now thinking dinner...

---

My emergency plugs are a wet wad of soggy toilet tissue, more over-ear-canal than in... Didn't see a toilet near the bandstand.

Entertainment:
11:30 – 1pm Luis Garcia
1:30 – 3:00 American Song Box
3:30 – 5:00 Kozmic Pearl
5:30 – 7:00 Spy vs Spy
7:30 – 9:00 Soul Circus Cowboys

It was Kosmic Pearl playing while I was paying attention.

Sounds like you're still having a good time!

Good idea for emergency ear protection. Reminds me of an occasion in the mid/late 70's, when a friend's sister scored floor seats for T-Rex, REO Speedwagon (don't recall which act opened), and the headliner -- Ted Nugent at the former San Diego Sports Arena (presently, Valley View Casino Center).

I looked over at my friend and noticed TP in one of his ears. I inquired, "Why do you have those?" He replied, "...to protect my hearing."

I questioned, incisively, "Why didn't you get me any?" He chortled. We were already into Nugent's set by now. My ears rang for three consecutive days.

 

[fas42]

Agreed. The question is how much it deteriorates when moving around.

Of course the sound deteriorates as you move around - in a classic, measurable sense. Which is why it's a lost cause to attempt to to compensate on the outside of the ear/brain mechanism - it's always going be 'wrong' somewhere, a highwire balancing act to get some reasonable compromise. The only conventional solution so far are those fancy headphones which "know" where your head is - but if you don't like headphones ...

Far smarter solution: work with the ear/brain, by feeding it with a very high quality soundfield - and your mind will do all the necessary sorting out, completely unconsciously - it's a winner, in every category.

 

[j_j]

Agreed. The question is how much it deteriorates when moving around.
...

But this is slightly off-topic when talking about pro vs hifi speakers...

For stereo, certainly. For properly produced multichannel, not so much. Don't put multichannel (done right) in the same boat as stereo.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Agreed, JJ, however the image shifts in Mch as you move around, though, I agree, that is less so than in stereo. Getting too close to surround speakers upsets imaging. But, the center channel does a very good job of keeping the frontal image anchored as heard from many spots in the room, better than 2-channel is able to.

But, this whole digression is rather pointless. Imaging while moving around in the room is totally a non-factor for me. If you want to maximixze that, the best and highest tech answer is ...... switch to mono.

 

[j_j]

Agreed, JJ, however the image shifts in Mch as you move around, though, I agree, that is less so than in stereo. Getting too close to surround speakers upsets imaging. But, the center channel does a very good job of keeping the frontal image anchored as heard from many spots in the room, better than 2-channel is able to.

But, this whole digression is rather pointless. Imaging while moving around in the room is totally a non-factor for me. If you want to maximixze that, the best and highest tech answer is ...... switch to mono.

Well, actually, because you automatically move your head in any live acoustic space, and because you do get a sense of perspective as you move about, it actually DOES make sense for "image shift" in the sense that you get a sense of perspective as you move.

This can be done with 5.0, although it's better in 7.0.

If you do that, with the proper production, you can get something much more like the "real thing".

 

[fas42]

Replay of true mono material over stereo speakers gives the most clearcut distinction in how image "shifting" operates, showing the relationship between quality of playback and the compensation mechanism of the hearing of at least some people.

With conventional quality, there is a phantom image midway between the speakers - if you move sideways there will be a point where the sound "dives" into the nearest speaker - there is a very clear boundary point where this switches on, or off.

With high enough quality, that boundary point is never found; the phantom image tracks your position as you move sideways - that is, the image "shifts" so that it appears to always remain "in front of you" - the tracking operates per your position with respect to speakers, and not to where the speakers happen to be - the phantom image is not constrained to be midway between the speakers.