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Audiophile vs Pro Speakers

watchnerd

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An interesting history of the evolution from hi-fidelity to euphonic high end sound written by the departed J. Gordon Holt:

http://www.westlakeaudio.com/Speakers/Reviews/absolutesound-lc81_81sw.html

"No reviewer ever judged a system to be too rich or too warm or too smooth or too laid-back, and manufacturers have continued to make their designs ever richer and warmer and sweeter and more laid-back until, today, some systems sound as if their midrange drivers are disconnected. On the other hand, speakers that dare to be truthful are routinely abused for “aggressiveness,” “harshness” and “shrillness,” even though real music often sounds aggressive, harsh, and shrill. Reviewers sometimes characterize these differences as “accuracy” versus “musicality,” when it should be obvious to anyone that the real (accurate) sound of musical instruments is by definition “musical.” "
 

c1ferrari

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Thanks, watchnerd. :)
Bravo - J. Gordon Holt! :D
 

j_j

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Ah, yes, I've encountered more than one or two speakers that were so deficient in the low midrange that it rendered speech mostly unintelligible. This does not suit for things like folk, indeedy.

I've also encountered speakers that I woudl describe, conversely, as having highly exaggerated bass and high end. They work for disco, I guess, but they make hash of the Spinners.
 

Analog Scott

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An interesting history of the evolution from hi-fidelity to euphonic high end sound written by the departed J. Gordon Holt:

http://www.westlakeaudio.com/Speakers/Reviews/absolutesound-lc81_81sw.html

"No reviewer ever judged a system to be too rich or too warm or too smooth or too laid-back, and manufacturers have continued to make their designs ever richer and warmer and sweeter and more laid-back until, today, some systems sound as if their midrange drivers are disconnected. On the other hand, speakers that dare to be truthful are routinely abused for “aggressiveness,” “harshness” and “shrillness,” even though real music often sounds aggressive, harsh, and shrill. Reviewers sometimes characterize these differences as “accuracy” versus “musicality,” when it should be obvious to anyone that the real (accurate) sound of musical instruments is by definition “musical.” "
I think maybe Holt was missing the mark here. Yeah, live sound can be bad. But that doesn't mean we should settle for bad sound in our home stereos. I don't see how harsh or shrill somehow becomes a desirable sound quality in audio just because some live music happens to be harsh or shrill. And I don't agree that live music that is harsh or shrill is automatically "musical" just because it is live music.

"the real (accurate) sound of musical instruments is by definition “musical.” I am calling B******t on that assertion by Holt.
 

Wombat

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I agree with Holt. If a rim shot would make one blink at the jazz club then my system will do the same if the recording is true. Trumpets at ten to fifteen feet can be very much 'in-your-face'. My self-designed loudspeaker using all pro components(Altec) effortlessly can reproduce that. My speakers,13.25 cu.ft, are tuned to 32Hz with clean bass, no boominess. Vocals are superb.

I don't expect them to appeal to everybody but I am well satisfied with them and they are keepers. I know there are better loudspeakers but most would cost much more than the $1500 I put into mine.
 

Analog Scott

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I agree with Holt. If a rim shot would make one blink at the jazz club then my system will do the same if the recording is true. Trumpets at ten to fifteen feet can be very much 'in-your-face'. My self-designed loudspeaker using all pro components effortlessly can reproduce that. My speakers,13.25 cu.ft, are tuned to 32Hz with clean bass, no boominess. Vocals are superb.
I don't expect them to appeal to everybody but I am well satisfied with them and they are keepers. I know there are better loudspeakers but most would cost much more than the $1500 I put into mine.
It's great that you like your system. I suspect a lot us here also like their own systems. I do think that really is the goal. Liking what you hear at home.
 

RayDunzl

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I don't expect them to appeal to everybody but I am well satisfied with them and they are keepers.

Got a picture?
 

Wombat

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Kitchen build:

IMG_0539.jpg IMG_0553.jpg IMG_0701.JPG IMG_0560.jpg IMG_0559.JPG IMG_0707.jpg

Last pic is at the tuning phase. Horn and parts of the inside of panels constrained layer damped with the 1st product shown, here: http://www.wurth.co.nz/cat/files/assets/downloads/page0198.pdf .
The horns respond with a very low-level dull thunk when tapped. The table has been removed and the 32Hz port tuning works well

Altec: 416-8B, 8o2-8D compression driver, 511B horn.

I have some JBL 2404H compression drivers that I haven't added. Probably won't.

SS bi-amped, 50W top and 100W bottom per side, digital active crossover(@500Hz) and equaliser.
 

Frank Dernie

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I think maybe Holt was missing the mark here. Yeah, live sound can be bad. But that doesn't mean we should settle for bad sound in our home stereos. I don't see how harsh or shrill somehow becomes a desirable sound quality in audio just because some live music happens to be harsh or shrill. And I don't agree that live music that is harsh or shrill is automatically "musical" just because it is live music.

"the real (accurate) sound of musical instruments is by definition “musical.” I am calling B******t on that assertion by Holt.

I agree with Holt. My wife is a musician and we have many musical friends so have been hearing live musical instruments daily, both here at home and at concerts, for over 40 years. I know that quite a few instruments, particularly brass, can be quite harsh.
I prefer a system which can reproduce this accurately when listening at home.

OTOH I can easily understand that somebody who almost never listens to live instruments up close and only "consumes" music on a hifi at home may well feel a more mellow sound appeals more.

As a young engineer making my first recordings I was surprised that analogue tape machines were not aligned at 0dB, and decided I was going to do so with mine - of course it is impossible, what I hadn't realised was that tape can not record the highest frequencies at 0dB (depending on tape speed and tape to a greater or lesser extent).
I suppose every recording made with analogue reel-to-reel tape has a rolled off top end, and if one's only, or main, experience of listening to music is via such recordings accurate reproduction of the harshness of real instruments may well be uncomfortable. It is probably no coincidence that plug-ins which emulate tape saturation on reel-to-reel recorders are very popular.
 

Analog Scott

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I agree with Holt. My wife is a musician and we have many musical friends so have been hearing live musical instruments daily, both here at home and at concerts, for over 40 years. I know that quite a few instruments, particularly brass, can be quite harsh.
I prefer a system which can reproduce this accurately when listening at home.

OTOH I can easily understand that somebody who almost never listens to live instruments up close and only "consumes" music on a hifi at home may well feel a more mellow sound appeals more.

As a young engineer making my first recordings I was surprised that analogue tape machines were not aligned at 0dB, and decided I was going to do so with mine - of course it is impossible, what I hadn't realised was that tape can not record the highest frequencies at 0dB (depending on tape speed and tape to a greater or lesser extent).
I suppose every recording made with analogue reel-to-reel tape has a rolled off top end, and if one's only, or main, experience of listening to music is via such recordings accurate reproduction of the harshness of real instruments may well be uncomfortable. It is probably no coincidence that plug-ins which emulate tape saturation on reel-to-reel recorders are very popular.
Personally I do make a point of it not to listen to brass or precussion up close.
 

Frank Dernie

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Personally I do make a point of it not to listen to brass or precussion up close.
Don't worry about percussion - it isn't harsh.
But I really do think a huge number of hifi enthusiasts don't like their system actually to be "high fidelity", which is fair enough, they are paying/listening.
 

Analog Scott

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Don't worry about percussion - it isn't harsh.
But I really do think a huge number of hifi enthusiasts don't like their system actually to be "high fidelity", which is fair enough, they are paying/listening.
I worry about percussion and brass up close simply because it's too loud. It literally hurts.
 

fas42

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Sal1950

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I think maybe Holt was missing the mark here. Yeah, live sound can be bad. But that doesn't mean we should settle for bad sound in our home stereos. I don't see how harsh or shrill somehow becomes a desirable sound quality in audio just because some live music happens to be harsh or shrill. And I don't agree that live music that is harsh or shrill is automatically "musical" just because it is live music.

"the real (accurate) sound of musical instruments is by definition “musical.” I am calling B******t on that assertion by Holt.
Got to disagree there., if the recording mirrors a live musical event that sounded harsh or shrill , the accurate system will sound harsh or shrill. Aiming for a system that's sounds smooth all the time while sacrificing accuracy is not High Fidelity. Of course your welcome to tune your rig to sound any way you prefer.
 

Wombat

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RayDunzl

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Analog Scott

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Got to disagree there., if the recording mirrors a live musical event that sounded harsh or shrill , the accurate system will sound harsh or shrill. Aiming for a system that's sounds smooth all the time while sacrificing accuracy is not High Fidelity. Of course your welcome to tune your rig to sound any way you prefer.
I did not suggest that one aim for a system that sounds "smooth" all the time. That is quite different than rationalizing a system that sounds harsh/ shrill because on occaission live music sounds harsh or shrill. Most of the time when live music sounds harsh and or shrill it is regarded as bad live sound. (Yes there are exceptions but yes, there is such a thing as bad live sound) If one is hearing harsh / shrill sound quality in their system on a regular basis I'd say that's a problem. Unless they like it. I am certainly not suggesting that one change the system to suit a few bad sounding recordings. But if the majority or a large part of one's music collection is sounding harsh/shrill I don't see how the fact that this happens sometimes with live music somehow compels us to accept in our audio systems. and let's also not forget this is not always some black v white all or nothing everything must be included proposition. There are ways of dealing with individual recordings that do not require one change the entire system.

What I am mostly suggesting is that I simply don't agree with this idea that we put these references on a pedestal and then bend our preferences to suit the references. Ultimately I believe the technology has to work in service of what I like not that I have to change what I like in service of the technology. If I think something sounds bad and am told I should like it or at least accpet it because it is "accurate" I reject that.
 
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