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audiophile optimizer?

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fas42

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Depending on the test, yes and no. Do you have above average hearing and if so, how do you know?
No, but I've learned to become sensitive to certain artifacts - other people will say, OK, it sounds really good now - and now, somehow it's not quite as good, but I don't really know what's changed; I can clearly hear what's altered, as an artifact in the sound - and that's because I've become highly sensitised to the variation, simply because I've been listening to this type of behaviour, for many, many years.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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No, we can't all be The Chosen One, able to bend audio reality to our will using skills too mystic to be understood by mere mortals.

The rest of us ungifted troglodytes have to deal with measurements.
Even with frank set on ignore, it's easy to tell when he's around.
 

fas42

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No...what you're describing sounds more like quantization error....

Jitter is a digital time domain error due to clock problems:

jitter1-266x300.png


It's analogous to wow & flutter in the analog world.

Seriously, @fas42 if you don't even know what the terms mean, I'm not sure where to go with this conversation.
Sorry, what you're describing are analogue behaviours - just adding the word digital to them doesn't make them so - digital ... means ... numbers, pure numbers, a 'theoretical' concept.
 

fas42

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watchnerd

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Sorry, what you're describing are analogue behaviours - just adding the word digital to them doesn't make them so - digital ... means ... numbers, pure numbers, a 'theoretical' concept.

If you want to talk math, I'm happy to. My graduate work was in signal processing.

Here is the jitter measurement equation:

jitter.png
 

watchnerd

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Sorry, what you're describing are analogue behaviours - just adding the word digital to them doesn't make them so - digital ... means ... numbers, pure numbers, a 'theoretical' concept.

And here is the SINAD equation for the whole combined signal processing enchilada (DC noise excluded):

Eq1x600.jpg
 

fas42

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Rightio, let's try another tack. We have a little man who stands beside the DAC chip, and watches the audio data coming in, on the DATA IN pin. And he writes down the numbers that the level transitions represent, on a huge roll of paper, very, veerry fast, using a pencil. And when finished passes the roll to another chap, who laboriously copies it to a huge roll of toilet paper, in a beautiful calligraphic script, using the finest fountain pen. Then he passes the poo paper to another tiny fellow who thrashes away, transcribing on a machine that pumps electrical signals into another DAC, to produce sound.

Where's our jitter in this fine process ... ?
 
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watchnerd

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Rightio, let's try another tack. We have a little man who stands beside the DAC chip, and watches the audio data coming in, on the DATA IN pin. And he writes down the numbers that the level transitions represent, on a huge roll of paper, very, veerry fast, using a pencil. And when finished passes the roll to another chap, who laboriously copies it to a huge roll of toilet paper, in a beautiful calligraphic script, using the finest fountain pen. Then he pass the poo paper to another tiny fellow who thrashes away, transcribing on a machine that pumps electrical signals into another DAC, to produce sound.

Where's our jitter in this fine process ... ?

@fas42 what are you trying to argue?

That jitter doesn't exist? That it doesn't cause distortion in the analog chain? These are known facts.

What's your point?
 

fas42

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That jitter is an analogue issue, which will interact with other analogue elements in the picture, which could be noise, EM interference, all the usual suspects - it is not digital distortion, which implies that the numbers have been distorted; the conversion of the numbers into equivalent analogue electrical levels is what has been distorted - the conversion process is flawed.
 

watchnerd

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Rightio, let's try another tack. We have a little man who stands beside the DAC chip, and watches the audio data coming in, on the DATA IN pin. And he writes down the numbers that the level transitions represent, on a huge roll of paper, very, veerry fast, using a pencil. And when finished passes the roll to another chap, who laboriously copies it to a huge roll of toilet paper, in a beautiful calligraphic script, using the finest fountain pen. Then he pass the poo paper to another tiny fellow who thrashes away, transcribing on a machine that pumps electrical signals into another DAC, to produce sound.

Where's our jitter in this fine process ... ?

BTW, I'd like to nominate your "digital conversion as a series of men with toilet paper" as best post of the New Year.

toilet-paper_o_1618907.jpg
 

watchnerd

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That jitter is an analogue issue, which will interact with other analogue elements in the picture, which could be noise, EM interference, all the usual suspects .

I already told you it manifests in the analog domain.

And yes it combines with other analog distortion. You're not saying anything new. Again, these are all known things....
 

fas42

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Digital remaining digital is always fine - but at some point, called the DAC, the signal goes into a hybrid world - and something called a "digital" line is not really that any more - it's taken to have analogue characteristics, and that's where things get interesting ...

... and this is where the fun started ...
 

amirm

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No, but I've learned to become sensitive to certain artifacts - other people will say, OK, it sounds really good now - and now, somehow it's not quite as good, but I don't really know what's changed; I can clearly hear what's altered, as an artifact in the sound - and that's because I've become highly sensitised to the variation, simply because I've been listening to this type of behaviour, for many, many years.
Unfortunately that has no meaning. To know you hear some artifacts it needs to be put in the system objectively and then you hearing it with no knowledge. It is like taking a test at school. You cannot grade your own exam, or rely on random stories and incidents like you state.

I think you will be shocked at how poor your hearing is. Next time someone posts a blind test here, take it and see how you do.

How do I know this? Because I too had decades of "experience" as an audiophile only to be proven completely wrong in my ability hear non-linear artifacts. It took formal training and countless blind tests to build up confidence and skill in what I do.
 

fas42

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Okay, so just so we're clear, you're saying:

Distortion and noise in the analog circuitry of a DAC implementation is bad and should be cleaned up.

Right?
Yep!
 

Sal1950

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Even with frank set on ignore, it's easy to tell when he's around.
Yep, same here Tim. Like the bad odor that arises when you step in something that you wish you hadn't.
I still hold that he doesn't hear or even believe a large portion of what he posts here. He simply finds it amusing to try and get a rise from serious audio folk with his audiophool delusional BS.
In the main the worst kind of troll.
Please don't feed the trolls. ;)
 

fas42

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Unfortunately that has no meaning. To know you hear some artifacts it needs to be put in the system objectively and then you hearing it with no knowledge. It is like taking a test at school. You cannot grade your own exam, or rely on random stories and incidents like you state.

I think you will be shocked at how poor your hearing is. Next time someone posts a blind test here, take it and see how you do.

How do I know this? Because I too had decades of "experience" as an audiophile only to be proven completely wrong in my ability hear non-linear artifacts. It took formal training and countless blind tests to build up confidence and skill in what I do.
The test is, that I've been able to listen to systems, and improve them, just by listening for artifacts, making an intelligent guess as to what the cause is, and progressing on that. I have not the slightest interest in being able to hear FR anomalies, phase behaviour, room effects, and the other usual suspects - what I'm interested in hearing a non-flawed system, and I don't muck around - I put on the recordings I want to hear, which many would consider "bad" recordings; and wind up the volume. Okaaay, this sounds like crap ... why does it sound like crap? Okay, the treble area is in bad shape, a quality of "glaring" is quite overpowering - what's causing this issue? And, proceed ...

Again, I don't go softly, softly - I hammer systems, provoke them to misbehave - then turn it down and see how the artifact changes as the stress level is reduced - this can tell one a lot.
 

fas42

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What many people don't appreciate is that the most mundane of speakers can pump out overwhelming levels of sound, of tremendous subjective quality. But they may never hear this, because the overall system has never been sufficiently tweaked for this to be possible.
 

fas42

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I still hold that he doesn't hear or even believe a large portion of what he posts here. He simply finds it amusing to try and get a rise from serious audio folk with his audiophool delusional BS.
In the main the worst kind of troll.
Please don't feed the trolls. ;)
If the audio industry could get its act together, and produce competent sound for a reasonable price I would be off like a shot. Plenty of interesting things to do in life, and whacking people over the head with concepts is not a personal favourite. When I can go to an audio show, or hifi retail outlet, and not cringe at most things I hear then I'll know we're getting somewhere. But, until then ...
 
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