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Audiolab 6000CDT experience

D

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So you had the Rotel RDP/RDD pair from the early/mid 90s.

What exactly was 'terrible' about the Rotel RDP-980? And you had a Marantz D/A converter. Which one? The DA-94? WHat made you think it was "far too bright"?
Because it was far too bright?
 
D

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How does it sound to you? It is difficult to understand how many speakers with flat frequency responses sound completely different to other speakers with flat frequency responses, yet they do and we accept that. But if a piece of electronics has a flat frequency response we seem to expect it to sound exactly the same as any other piece of electronics with a similarly flat frequency response? Perhaps it lies in the test method vs actual music? After all measuring a constant and equal signal across the whole frequency range is very different to measuring the dynamic nature of real music.
 

rdenney

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How does it sound to you? It is difficult to understand how many speakers with flat frequency responses sound completely different to other speakers with flat frequency responses, yet they do and we accept that. But if a piece of electronics has a flat frequency response we seem to expect it to sound exactly the same as any other piece of electronics with a similarly flat frequency response? Perhaps it lies in the test method vs actual music? After all measuring a constant and equal signal across the whole frequency range is very different to measuring the dynamic nature of real music.

Because speakers are only flat in one direction, no matter how they are designed, but still must live in a three-dimensional space full of reflections and resonances. And speakers distinguish themselves by how much voltage they can take with respect to distortion and output.

CD players have only transports and DACs. If they have a flat response, they have a flat response. And nearly all of them produce a ~2-volt output with respect to 0dB FS.

Some of them roll off the top octave a bit and some don’t, depending on their filters. You have to be able to hear above about 16 KHz to notice this, of course. But those differences are far easier to see in measurements than in music.

If you can detect something in music that you think isn’t being measured, then the burden is on you to identify it in terms that can be discussed and explored. But first you’ll have to show that your detection ability (or that of whoever you are believing) is robust in the absence of prior knowledge of the devices under test.

Rick “much arm-waving; no testing” Denney
 

jsrtheta

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Dear all, am new here. Just saw this thread as I was searching for reviews on CD transport...

My current budget system:
SMSL Sanskrit 10th mk2 as DAC
Audiolab 8000A as preamp
Audiolab 8000P bi-wired to
Sonus Faber Concerto speakers on stand

My old Audiolab 8000CD recently failed with "error" sign on its display, it's gonna cost at least $200 USD to get it fixed based on where I live...
So thinking to get a CD transport to go with my DAC and just read some of the reviews/comments here, 6000CDT seems quite good at its job but gvn its price tag doesnt make sense to pair it with my budget system, no?
CD transports don't impart a unique "sound". They work or they don't. Claims of transports with sonic signatures were big in the Stereophile/TAS universe (I fell for them for a while), but such claims aren't backed by DBTs or really anything provable. Because a transport either delivers the 1s and 0s correctly or it doesn't. Any properly working CD player with a digital output delivers the same digital signal that a $12,000 transport does. As Peter Aczel joked, you can't make the 1s more 1-ish or the 0s more 0-ish. That's the point of digital.

I finally parted with my last dedicated transport, a PS Audio Lambda IISE. It's been replaced by a Tascam CD200 player, used as a transport. It sounds the same as the PS Audio because there is no way, short of being broken, that it wouldn't. (The guy who bought the Lambda had no illusions on this score.)

Belief in a sonic difference started with people used to differences in turntables. Superficially, that might have made sense, but in fact it doesn't. The signal is reclocked in the DAC.
 

sq225917

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Everyone assumes that reclocking in a dac is perfect, that's not always the case, especially across multiple inputs There's plenty of ways to skin that cat.

Probably worth mentioning that the audiolab outputs from a decent sized data buffer, so in that respect its likely to be cleaner than some transports that only work at 1x.
 
D

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Because speakers are only flat in one direction, no matter how they are designed, but still must live in a three-dimensional space full of reflections and resonances. And speakers distinguish themselves by how much voltage they can take with respect to distortion and output.

CD players have only transports and DACs. If they have a flat response, they have a flat response. And nearly all of them produce a ~2-volt output with respect to 0dB FS.

Some of them roll off the top octave a bit and some don’t, depending on their filters. You have to be able to hear above about 16 KHz to notice this, of course. But those differences are far easier to see in measurements than in music.

If you can detect something in music that you think isn’t being measured, then the burden is on you to identify it in terms that can be discussed and explored. But first you’ll have to show that your detection ability (or that of whoever you are believing) is robust in the absence of prior knowledge of the devices under test.

Rick “much arm-waving; no testing” Denney
Thanks just off to find some eggs.
Everyone assumes that reclocking in a dac is perfect, that's not always the case, especially across multiple inputs There's plenty of ways to skin that cat.

Probably worth mentioning that the audiolab outputs from a decent sized data buffer, so in that respect its likely to be cleaner than some transports that only work at 1x.
Agreed all perfect DACs sound the same?
 

jsrtheta

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Everyone assumes that reclocking in a dac is perfect, that's not always the case, especially across multiple inputs There's plenty of ways to skin that cat.

Probably worth mentioning that the audiolab outputs from a decent sized data buffer, so in that respect its likely to be cleaner than some transports that only work at 1x.
No one's saying DAC clocks are perfect, just that they're the only clocks that matter. And until someone can prove in a DBT, properly administered and documented, that they can tell the "cleaner" transport from others, there's no data worth arguing about.
 

LTig

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How does it sound to you? It is difficult to understand how many speakers with flat frequency responses sound completely different to other speakers with flat frequency responses, yet they do and we accept that. But if a piece of electronics has a flat frequency response we seem to expect it to sound exactly the same as any other piece of electronics with a similarly flat frequency response?
This is correct. Other than speakers whose performance is (a) far from perfect and (b) depends heavily on the room, electronic equipment does not suffer from such circumstances. Humans cannot see or hear electric current - for this we use measurement equipment. If the frequency range is sufficiently flat within the audible range and both noise and distortion are below the known human hearing such equipment is called transparent - it does neither add nor subtract anything from the input at its output.
Perhaps it lies in the test method vs actual music? After all measuring a constant and equal signal across the whole frequency range is very different to measuring the dynamic nature of real music.
Nope. Electronic equipment which measures "transparent" is linear within its amplitude range and hence cannot change the dynamics of music as long as it is not driven into clipping (out of its linear range). Also have a look at the multi tone measurements which emulates music and tests the whole frequency range at once.
 

sq225917

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A perfectly functioning reclocking circuit in the dac, has the only clock that counts if using a reclocking protocol and receiving a signal within the specs of the protocol. Agreed.

Great if you have modern async dac.

And for everyone still rocking 90's and early 00's tech then the best possible input signal really matters. Like using the buffered coax output of the 6000 transport into a tda1541 diy dac.

Seems like people forget what the shorthand we use actually means. Only the dac clock counts doesn't actually mean that at all. It's shorthand for a much narrower use case.
 

voodooless

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There's plenty of ways to skin that cat.
There is only one proper way: do it blind. Just make sure the cat is dead first, otherwise it might scratch.

Great if you have modern async dac.
Those are actually still the minority. Only the top of the line ESS DAC’s incorporate an ASRC, others use synchronous oversampling. The main workhorse in eliminating jitter here is the PLL circuit in the spdif receiver that is capable of rejecting most of the clock jitter. Performance of these things has been excellent for a long while now. Then some DAC’s have dedicated ASRC chips or wicked FPGA reclocking stuff. The former you seldom see anymore (mostly in DSP enables products), and the later is reserved for the more boutique DAC’s and I’ve never seen those things have any more exceptional performance than a properly implemented standard spdif receiver.
 

sq225917

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The point is, a well buffered output can only give better sound, or make no difference, it can never make it worse.
 

jsrtheta

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The point is, a well buffered output can only give better sound, or make no difference, it can never make it worse.

This was always the main argument against two-box solutions. Jitter (which I have never seen audibly detected in a DBT - read Archimago) can only become an issue in a transport/DAC situation.

I once did a DBT between a Theta DS Pro Gen Va and a much more cheaply designed PS Audio DL3. Both were 20-bit boxes, the Theta using the vaunted PCM63P-K, the PS Audio using the much less vaunted PCM1702J. The transport was a Theta Jade. The price difference was in the thousands.

I was unable to differentiate between them.

But if you want to avoid jitter issues, buy a one-box CD player. Cheaper and cleaner, engineering-wise.
 

Ale Dors

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Please, does it transport sacd? I want connect it in my Marantz sr7015 avr.
 

KellenVancouver

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Please, does it transport sacd? I want connect it in my Marantz sr7015 avr.
No, won't transport sacd. I have not tested that lack of ability (since I haven't an sacd to run through it), but note that (1) there is no mention of sacd in the documentation that came with the transport and (2) in a review of the 6000CDT by "The Audiophile Man" he addressed that specific question by saying no. Of course, it should be able to transport the CD layer of a hybrid sacd just fine.
 

JaccoW

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Would a Analog to Digital Converter (ADC) help here?

Let's say I think I can hear a difference between
  • CD transport > coax > DAC
  • FLAC rip > USB > DAC
If the both run into the same speakers using the same cables you should be seeing the same result when you record it right?
Maybe something like a Focusrite Scarlett 8i6?
 

Ale Dors

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No, won't transport sacd. I have not tested that lack of ability (since I haven't an sacd to run through it), but note that (1) there is no mention of sacd in the documentation that came with the transport and (2) in a review of the 6000CDT by "The Audiophile Man" he addressed that specific question by saying no. Of course, it should be able to transport the CD layer of a hybrid sacd just fine.
Cheers, it is a big no. Appreciated,
 
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