Audio Test of Power Conditioner by Audioquest

[BlackTalon]

Correct so far as it goes. But from a professional liability perspective, failure to abide by these ethical codes can be problematic and perhaps costly, regardless of the registration status of the practitioner.

At least where I am in the US, and in the building construction side of things, there is General Liability and there is Errors and Omissions (which you could call Professional Liability). E&O policies are written for companies or sole practitioners. A company policy will require there be licensed professionals -- and they have a responsibility for all work prepared by others under their supervision. A sole practitioner will not be able to get E&O insurance unless they are licensed. So basically they would be bound by the State's Code of Ethics. Someone with just an engineering degree is not bound by a Code, but they also would not be considered qualified to produce construction design drawings that get reviewed for permitting.

I am not an attorney, but as a long-time company co-owner I've had plenty of exposure to information about liability. And I've also been involved in construction litigation, which confirmed where liability is ultimately assigned, and I've also seen how some States penalize design professionals (and not unlicensed personnel working under the licensed professionals).

Again, my ramblings are more about the legal implications and licensing body requirements, and not about 'what is morally correct.'

With respect to another post above talking about drivers licensed that is not remotely the same thing...

 

[Ingenieur]

At least where I am in the US, and in the building construction side of things, there is General Liability and there is Errors and Omissions (which you could call Professional Liability). E&O policies are written for companies or sole practitioners. A company policy will require there be licensed professionals -- and they have a responsibility for all work prepared by others under their supervision. A sole practitioner will not be able to get E&O insurance unless they are licensed. So basically they would be bound by the State's Code of Ethics. Someone with just an engineering degree is not bound by a Code, but they also would not be considered qualified to produce construction design drawings that get reviewed for permitting.

I am not an attorney, but as a long-time company co-owner I've had plenty of exposure to information about liability. And I've also been involved in construction litigation, which confirmed where liability is ultimately assigned, and I've also seen how some States penalize design professionals (and not unlicensed personnel working under the licensed professionals).

Again, my ramblings are more about the legal implications and licensing body requirements, and not about 'what is morally correct.'

With respect to another post above talking about drivers licensed that is not remotely the same thing...

I am licensed and have a side company.
I obtained E&O, you are correct, you must be licensed. In PA to have an engineering firm the principles must be licensed and as you noted be in responsible charge of all the firms's work.

It is the same thing from a moral/ethical perspective. A license does not confer the obligation to be ethical. The unlicensed do not get a free pass.
This arises from the value system of the individual, not the State.

In most states the boards can sanction and penalize the unlicensed who practice engineering.

This is one state I hold a license.
Under penalties, they can penalize the unlicensed up to criminal referral.
Very rarely happens, but if there is death/injury it may.

https://www.wvpebd.org/Portals/WVPEBD/docs/WVPEBD_LawsRulesRegs.pdf

who practices or offers to practice when not qualified, or any person who falsely claims that he or she is registered or authorized under this article, or any person who violates any of the provisions of this article is guilty of a misdemeanor, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or imprisoned in the county jail not more than six months, or both fined and imprisoned.
Any person who commits a second or subsequent offense under this section is guilty of a felony, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be imprisoned in the penitentiary not less than ten nor more than twenty years.
The attorney general may act as legal adviser to the board

 

[Ingenieur]

Correct so far as it goes. But from a professional liability perspective, failure to abide by these ethical codes can be problematic and perhaps costly, regardless of the registration status of the practitioner.

Exactly.
The law applies to the registered and unregistered.

Just like a DL

 

[MaxBuck]

At least where I am in the US, and in the building construction side of things, there is General Liability and there is Errors and Omissions (which you could call Professional Liability). E&O policies are written for companies or sole practitioners. A company policy will require there be licensed professionals -- and they have a responsibility for all work prepared by others under their supervision. A sole practitioner will not be able to get E&O insurance unless they are licensed. So basically they would be bound by the State's Code of Ethics. Someone with just an engineering degree is not bound by a Code, but they also would not be considered qualified to produce construction design drawings that get reviewed for permitting.

I am not an attorney, but as a long-time company co-owner I've had plenty of exposure to information about liability. And I've also been involved in construction litigation, which confirmed where liability is ultimately assigned, and I've also seen how some States penalize design professionals (and not unlicensed personnel working under the licensed professionals).

Again, my ramblings are more about the legal implications and licensing body requirements, and not about 'what is morally correct.'

With respect to another post above talking about drivers licensed that is not remotely the same thing...

Most engineers are not registered PEs. They work for municipalities or corporations that are not professional services providers, and are therefore exempt in most states from registration requirements. But those individual non-registered engineers working for such entities are nonetheless potentially liable for their errors and omissions, as well as for ethical transgressions.

I've worked in professional services companies and owned my own engineering practice. This stuff has been hammered into me, as I'm sure is the case for you.

 

[Ingenieur]

Most engineers are not registered PEs. They work for municipalities or corporations that are not professional services providers, and are therefore exempt in most states from registration requirements. But those individual non-registered engineers working for such entities are nonetheless potentially liable for their errors and omissions, as well as for ethical transgressions.

I've worked in professional services companies and owned my own engineering practice. This stuff has been hammered into me, as I'm sure is the case for you.

I was appointed as the engineer for many muni/authorities/etc.
There usually must be one licensed engineer working on their behalf.

Corporations manufacturing a product and providing a warranty are typically exempt. If they provide consulting services to another business entity they may need a license depending on the jurisdiction.
But some do, like mobile homes, etc.

 

[DonR]

I was appointed as the engineer for many muni/authorities/etc.
There usually must be one licensed engineer working on their behalf.

Corporations manufacturing a product and providing a warranty are typically exempt. If they provide consulting services to another business entity they may need a license depending on the jurisdiction.
But some do, like mobile homes, etc.

My son is working towards his PE designation. He works at a private company that supplies batteries for the marine industry and they require PEs to sign off on their projects.

 

[Ingenieur]

My son is working towards his PE designation. He works at a private company that supplies batteries for the marine industry and they require PEs to sign off on their projects.

Make sure they provide E&O for him, if he seals his work in the future.
His name is on it and he is responsible for it.
It's about sharing liability.

 

[SIY]

This was a beauty:

Man Fined for Engineering Without a License Was Right All Along | Engineering Recruiting

In 2017 Motherboard shared the story of Mats Järlström, the Oregon electrical engineer who challenged the state’s traffic light timing. What began as a simple quest to help his wife avoid an unfair ticket turned into a multi-year saga after the Oregon Board of Engineers fined him thousands of...

engineeringrecruiting.org

After taking a PE practice exam and breezing through it, I thought about getting the credential. Then I found out I wasn't eligible. Ah, well.

 

[DonR]

Make sure they provide E&O for him, if he seals his work in the future.
His name is on it and he is responsible for it.
It's about sharing liability.

Absolutely, already made sure of that... not my first rodeo . Half of his department has already gone to Tesla so there is lots of opportunity for advancement as well.

 

[Ingenieur]

Absolutely, already made sure of that... not my first rodeo . Half of his department has already gone to Tesla so there is lots of opportunity for advancement as well.

I'm on a task force that will provide regulations for the use of lithium batteries in underground mining operations.

I'm gathering information from industry.
I'd like to talk to him.

 

[DonR]

I'm on a task force that will provide regulations for the use of lithium batteries in underground mining operations.

I'm gathering information from industry.
I'd like to talk to him.

PM sent

 

[BlackTalon]

I am licensed and have a side company.
I obtained E&O, you are correct, you must be licensed. In PA to have an engineering firm the principles must be licensed and as you noted be in responsible charge of all the firms's work.

It is the same thing from a moral/ethical perspective. A license does not confer the obligation to be ethical. The unlicensed do not get a free pass.
This arises from the value system of the individual, not the State.

In most states the boards can sanction and penalize the unlicensed who practice engineering.

This is one state I hold a license.
Under penalties, they can penalize the unlicensed up to criminal referral.
Very rarely happens, but if there is death/injury it may.

https://www.wvpebd.org/Portals/WVPEBD/docs/WVPEBD_LawsRulesRegs.pdf

who practices or offers to practice when not qualified, or any person who falsely claims that he or she is registered or authorized under this article, or any person who violates any of the provisions of this article is guilty of a misdemeanor, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or imprisoned in the county jail not more than six months, or both fined and imprisoned.
Any person who commits a second or subsequent offense under this section is guilty of a felony, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be imprisoned in the penitentiary not less than ten nor more than twenty years.
The attorney general may act as legal adviser to the board

still not sure I see ethics versus potentially fraud. I think we are debating different things.

Just to roughly acknowledge some of the other posts, a lot of engineers associated with building construction and heavy civil construction obtain PEs. Not so much for MEs and EEs working for defense contractors or in tech sectors, ChemEs and Industrial engineers. There are different expectations in different business sectors.

 

[Ingenieur]

still not sure I see ethics versus potentially fraud. I think we are debating different things.

Just to roughly acknowledge some of the other posts, a lot of engineers associated with building construction and heavy civil construction obtain PEs. Not so much for MEs and EEs working for defense contractors or in tech sectors, ChemEs and Industrial engineers. There are different expectations in different business sectors.

Ethically behavior prevents fraud.
When you need a license is defined in the law(s).
Just because one is not licensed doesn't mean they should not abide by the ethics of their profession.

 

[Chrispy]

I've always been curious just what "engineers" fraudioquest has hired and just what they can do outside of the marketing folks that run the company....

 

[Ingenieur]

This was a beauty:

Man Fined for Engineering Without a License Was Right All Along | Engineering Recruiting

In 2017 Motherboard shared the story of Mats Järlström, the Oregon electrical engineer who challenged the state’s traffic light timing. What began as a simple quest to help his wife avoid an unfair ticket turned into a multi-year saga after the Oregon Board of Engineers fined him thousands of...

engineeringrecruiting.org

After taking a PE practice exam and breezing through it, I thought about getting the credential. Then I found out I wasn't eligible. Ah, well.

I took it twice, discipline specific.
Power
Controls

I did not breeze through them
But I passed. It was decades ago.
I was at work for the first one, my wife was afraid to open it. Lol

In PA anyone can say they are an engineer. But not a professional or licensed engineer (if not). Can't sell services without a license. The OR board was stupid.
My employer though won't allow the title engineer on business cards without a license.

 

[BlackTalon]

I am seeing an unfortunate trend among recent grads where there is little interest in eventually obtaining a license. They do not want to study for another big exam, they do not want the pressure of design responsibility, and/ or they have no desire to eventually own an engineering business. It is a huge shift in the mentality vs 30+ years ago.

 

[Ingenieur]

I am seeing an unfortunate trend among recent grads where there is little interest in eventually obtaining a license. They do not want to study for another big exam, they do not want the pressure of design responsibility, and/ or they have no desire to eventually own an engineering business. It is a huge shift in the mentality vs 30+ years ago.

My advice to a young EE: power
I went back and got a grad certificate in power engineering: wind, solar, converters, micro-grid, storage (battery, caps, H cells), FACTS, Did not need it, wanted it and my employer paid for it.
etc. I have a MSEE from years ago concentration in power.

There is a shortage due to old timers retiring, the trend to the glamorous (lol) computers, chips, telecomm, etc, and the new tech about to engulf us.

I get stuff from headhunters daily. Too late to change, but after I retire I may do some contract/project work of short duration (6 months range) just to travel a bit.

Get a PE even if yo don't need or use it.
The longer you wait, the harder it gets.

 

[Ingenieur]

Side track:
Just got an email/question from a test proctor for certified electricians who are testing right now.
? Should the 4600 watts be volts ?
Hint: no

Problem:
Find motor V

 

[SIY]

Side track:
Just got an email/question from a test proctor for certified electricians who are testing right now.
? Should the 4600 watts be volts ?
Hint: no

Problem:
Find motor V
View attachment 189076

Really? Someone administering the test can’t solve this simple problem rapidly?

 

[DonR]

Assuming the transformer is ideal, power in = power out.