solderdude
Grand Contributor
yes, well actually it is more designed to use flat pads and give them the proper contour around the ears.
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Audio-Technica ATH-R70x Review (Headphone)
- Thread starter amirm
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So in your experience less angling than other angled headphones like say K702 / HD560s / HE4XX / HD800s? I suppose they all have different angling. I know you review a lot of headphones, do you measure the angle, where would you say this headphone fits in amoungst the angled headphones you've reviewed / owned / seen?
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Seems harmless, how long has this been around?
I think this is a quite good headphone, quite good compliance to the target, distortion is really good except low bass, where we dont even sensitive, so dont really get the negative tone. The HD650 more or less the same, with the same distortion characteristic..so why is that headphone got better conclusion? Interesting.
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I am not sure if it can take 1W at 1kHZ, but I don't understand your reasoning. The spec is at 1K the headphones collapse in the sub bass region, as stated by Amir, but these "bad distortion Amir has shown" Have zero impact on a 1 kHz spec. Your baseline of 200 mW is for efficients headphones I think? It's the excursion that limits the headphone max SPL capability that's the only number that we should look at, 129 dB at 1K, the fact that you reach that at 1W or at 22V don't get into the equation.I've just checked three different online power calculators and they all give the same result that I included in my last post:
Headphone Power Calculator - Headphone & Earphone Audio & Reviews
How much power do your headphones need? Does your amp have enough power? Find out here with our handy calculator. Learn about voltage, current and power.www.hear.audio
Headphone Power Calculator: Free, Instant Online Tool - 9meters
When choosing headphones for personal or professional use, it's important to think about their power needs to make sure they work well with your audio device.www.digizoid.com
Headphones Power Calculator
Calculate the power needed to drive your headphone based on sensitivity (db/mw or db/V), impedance (ohms) and loudness (dbSPL)www.headphonesty.com
And if I use the dB/mw setting then I get almost the same results with 1000mw input equating to 21.7V and 129dB. So their specs must be wrong surely, how can you put nearly 22V into this headphone and for it not to blow up, and also the 129dB is hugely loud in comparison to the bad distortion Amir has shown at the comparitively miniscule levels above 94dB.........how can this headphone just not blow up, surely their 1000mw maximum input at 1kHz must be incorrect?!
EDIT: most headphones top out at 200mw input power, but they're saying 1000mw for this headphone!?
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solderdude
Grand Contributor
Not only the angle differs but also the driver-ear distance and position as well as driver diameter.
And, most likely, also L-R driver matching in higher frequencies.
I have measured the angles of some drivers and list them in the reviews where I measured it. Not many degrees while with speakers the sound comes from about a 60 degree angle opposite the head and not just a few degrees. Add to that reflections from the room (speakers) and eyes giving the brain info as well.
IMO, to really get good pinna interaction you would have to angle substantially more than the few degrees by most headphones.
Sennheiser also increased driver ear distance and space around the driver as well as wavefront.
IMO this is at least a big part of the strength of the HD800 spatial qualities.
I have the ATH-A700X which has the highest angle I have seen yet (about 20 degrees) where the HD800 is about 10 degrees.
One would expect the A700X to have better stereo imaging but to me it doesn't.
Also some elevated treble seems to help sometimes.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
There are some (dynamic) drivers that can really handle 1W continuous (it does not specify the duration) without blowing up. Others give up at 50mW already.
At those electric power levels one should not expect distortion free sound but at least the voice coil should not be damaged.
Drivers that are rated for 200mW continuous for instance can handle 1W peaks (that occur in music) without being blown up yet.
And yes, the excursion is the biggest issue. When playing music at very loud levels there is always bass and all other signals are superposed on them. This means that when the headphone makes a large excursion at say 40Hz and is already soft clipping then other signals (say 800Hz and 5kHz) are also 'modulated' by that low frequency. This creates even order harmonics for the higher frequencies incl. side bands around those frequencies. Even when the distortion at 800Hz and 5kHz are reported as being low. They still will distort because of the large excursion the membrane makes.
The very recently released and very well liked and said to be low distortion Rode NTH-100 for instance already starts to compress (odd harmonics) at around 80dB SPL in the lows.
Beside those three considerations ear distance, angle, elevated treble. Isn't it generally accepted as well than open back design is expected to have better spacial quality?
I agree that some of their "audiophile" series sometimes are tuned far from the generally accepted Harman curve. I would tent to think this is a conscious decision for some markets. But this is a headphone officially targeted at the pro market. It's the open back brother to the M-series. None of these have what I would call wonky response. They are not perfect, but are hugely popular, M-series HP are some of the most sold wired headphones worldwide (BT is on an all other level). They must be doing something right.
Now back to this particular model, sure it's not great in the sub basses, but it's true for all dynamic open backs. We sometime want an headphone that does everything well but I don't see it that way. Only planars can do well in the lowest basses, but they are heavy, and have low impedance. Considering this segment: high impedance, pro open backs, Really they should be compared to comparables, HD6xx series from Sennheiser, DT X990 from Beyer. Or such. To this I think it's fair take, it's priced right there and performance is competitive really.
The reasoning is that 22V seems like a ridiculous amount to put into a headphone when DACS are outputting 2V at most except for balanced DACS, and high gain on headphone amplifiers might be like around 4 or 5 times amplification so really that's 8-10V coming into the headphone as an upper ceiling for most audiophile gear and that is itself already a boat load (too much) to be putting into almost any headphone - that's a long way off 22V. Also it doesn't sit as a practical notion when this headphone is badly distorting at 104dB already, let alone the supposed 129dB upper limit which would be the result of a 1000mw input. It's just soooo nonsensical on both those reasons that it makes me doubt their specs re the 1000mw input......and even if it is true it's unuseable for the reasons I mentioned.......just nonsensical in total, so that's my point, pretty clear reasoning to me, lol.
Yes, plenty of space inside the earcup so your ears don't touch & angling I agree are likely design cues for good soundstage, just I wondered if you knew where the R70x comes in vs some other angled headphones, but I see you've not reviewed the R70x. Judging from the comments of people with having problems fitting their ears in the pads then they're probably not gonna be any better (probably not as good as) than the HE4XX (angled pads) for soundstage if I were to hypothesize a comparison, as there's not a lot of room inside the HE4XX I own, and can normally feel some part of my ear touching lightly somewhere on the edges. HE4XX is ok for soundstage, not the best.....so I'd kinda expect this R70x to be no better. (Just trying to put it into perspective for myself.). Would have to listen to the R70x to know for sure, but that's what I'm expecting.
OK, but maybe we don't need that 129 dB, my point was just that doubting the validity of the spec because it won't happen in real world is an arbitrary statement. Again, why do you restate it's badly distorting at 104 dB when this specification is made by feeding a 1 kHz tone. I am not saying it SHOULD be measured at 1K, some don't mention that and it maybe could be a reason their number is lower. Do you see this headphone badly distorting at 104 dB SPL at 1 kHz? You are repeating what you said before, but you don't explain the reasoning, you are just repeating the same statement. Again this headphone is inefficient, but not more so that a HD650 or a DT990. So what you are saying that in most amplification gain structures, a 2V at 0 dBFS Dac can't bring this to 129 dB SPL, that is true, but why should we care about that, 129 dBSPL at 1k is unbearable. Yes those need a powerful amp, so do the comparable headphones I have mentioned. All that said is that you can feed it a 1 kHz tone at 22V and it won't break. It does not say nothing about doing so at other frequencies.The reasoning is that 22V seems like a ridiculous amount to put into a headphone when DACS are outputting 2V at most except for balanced DACS, and high gain on headphone amplifiers might be like around 4 or 5 times amplification so really that's 8-10V coming into the headphone as an upper ceiling for most audiophile gear and that is itself already a boat load (too much) to be putting into almost any headphone - that's a long way off 22V. Also it doesn't sit as a practical notion when this headphone is badly distorting at 104dB already, let alone the supposed 129dB upper limit which would be the result of a 1000mw input. It's just soooo nonsensical on both those reasons that it makes me doubt their specs re the 1000mw input......and even if it is true it's unuseable for the reasons I mentioned.......just nonsensical in total, so that's my point, pretty clear reasoning to me, lol.
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aromig
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I've had the R70x for about half a year now, so I'll share some of my impressions thus far. Hopefully this won't get too meandering.
From the get-go, there's the same main issues as Amir mentioned: Comfort and Bass extension. I solved my personal issues with both using different Ear Pads.
Comfort:
Amazingly light, great foundation for long wearing periods. Thankfully, I quite like the springed arm/wing design as it helps prevent any soreness compared to a traditional headband. My HE400se pair, even though well padded (and admittedly substantially heavier), can cause a quite the sore spot after a while. The design avoids the Parietal Ridge, and the accompanying pressure that often is exerted there. I did have the paddles poke my head once or twice, but have learned to look and make sure they are level and not at some odd angle.
Ear pads seem to be the main issue cited for these headphones, and I am certainly in that boat. Their size skirts being almost as small as on-ear, but not quite as big as over-ear. Ear folding is likely necessary with the stock pads. Right away, this was my biggest issue with the R70x. So I set about trying other pads. It's quite easy to destroy the wonderfully neutral, yet slightly warm, tonality. Not as ridiculously so as say the HD6x0 family or the K550/K553s, but still a challenge.
The go-to Shure SRH-1540 and SRH-940s were the first I tried, and are decent options, but personally I didn't like the fit or the sound. I also tried a host of other pads I have accumulated for my own highly unscientific testing. Every material option you typically find, some less common oddball materials, various hybrid combinations, and several shapes and sizes. BTW, I should share that I'm a chronic earpad "roller". I settled on a pair of M50x Choice Hybrids from Dekoni. These are oval, so some minor fiddling is needed to get them positioned correctly, but they can be centered nicely. Line the seam up with the cable connector. On the round cup R70x they are shortened some in height, but they still have increased inner height compared to the stock pair. For me, no more ear folding or pressure. What's more, they sound like an improved version of the stock pair. Including an improvement in...
Bass Extension:
Depending on the song, the R70x often do not sound as though they are lacking in bass. Per the old open-back shortcoming though, they lack sub bass extension. As Amir's distortion chart implies, digital equalization of the bass is problematic. The above mentioned M50x hybrid pads remedy this in a much more graceful manner. Extension is much improved. It pounds in places it should, where it may have previously only thumped. We don't suddenly have closed-back bass, but it is markedly improved. What's more, distortion is not problematic in the way EQ can cause it to be.
I highly recommend trying the M50x hybrid pads. Since I have a pair of M50x and M40x, I also had the Elite Velour version. These are another good option. Less Midbass, so a more linear bass response. They also have more in the upper Midrange/lower treble. One could argue it's closer the stock sound profile. I find them less plush and comfy to wear than the Hybrids though. They still have the better shape for the ear though, so no folding. I also enjoy the warmer sound of the Hybrid. But, it's good to have options, and you can't go wrong with either.
Wild Card: That Cable
Aside from the ear pads, the other thing that irritated me was the cable. I hate that cable. It's stiff and microphonic. Combine those qualities with a 3 meter length, and you have a recipe for irritation and distraction. Is it perfectly functional? Yes. Did it consistently bug me? Yes. What's more, the dual cable with locking 2.5mm connectors was designed so it didn't matter which was left and which was right. A neat concept, it works no matter which cable is connected to which side. The down side is it's a proprietary design used by only a solitary headphone model. "Boutique". Looked around at Amazon, Ali, Ebay; few options, and certainly none of quality for less than an arm or a leg. Audiophile Ninja offers a glorious customizable cable. It's also a reasonable price considering the quality.
On the topic of necessary driving power, I have a few of the headphones on Amir's chart. Oddly enough, despite it's place on said chart, it does not seem any more difficult to drive than the AKG K7XX. This is on a Topping DX3 Pro+ at the same volume setting, nothing changed but the headphones. Volume seemed roughly equivalent, and both a fair bit louder than the HE400se. Interpret this anecdotal observation as you will.
After the minor changes, these are now one of my favorite sets of headphones. Neutral tonality with a slight warm tilt, lightweight, and (now) comfortable. Lack of aberrant peaks means they minimize listening fatigue. Combine this with light and comfy and you have some great extended listening headphones.
*Edited for some additional information/context and a lot of typos.
From the get-go, there's the same main issues as Amir mentioned: Comfort and Bass extension. I solved my personal issues with both using different Ear Pads.
Comfort:
Amazingly light, great foundation for long wearing periods. Thankfully, I quite like the springed arm/wing design as it helps prevent any soreness compared to a traditional headband. My HE400se pair, even though well padded (and admittedly substantially heavier), can cause a quite the sore spot after a while. The design avoids the Parietal Ridge, and the accompanying pressure that often is exerted there. I did have the paddles poke my head once or twice, but have learned to look and make sure they are level and not at some odd angle.
Ear pads seem to be the main issue cited for these headphones, and I am certainly in that boat. Their size skirts being almost as small as on-ear, but not quite as big as over-ear. Ear folding is likely necessary with the stock pads. Right away, this was my biggest issue with the R70x. So I set about trying other pads. It's quite easy to destroy the wonderfully neutral, yet slightly warm, tonality. Not as ridiculously so as say the HD6x0 family or the K550/K553s, but still a challenge.
The go-to Shure SRH-1540 and SRH-940s were the first I tried, and are decent options, but personally I didn't like the fit or the sound. I also tried a host of other pads I have accumulated for my own highly unscientific testing. Every material option you typically find, some less common oddball materials, various hybrid combinations, and several shapes and sizes. BTW, I should share that I'm a chronic earpad "roller". I settled on a pair of M50x Choice Hybrids from Dekoni. These are oval, so some minor fiddling is needed to get them positioned correctly, but they can be centered nicely. Line the seam up with the cable connector. On the round cup R70x they are shortened some in height, but they still have increased inner height compared to the stock pair. For me, no more ear folding or pressure. What's more, they sound like an improved version of the stock pair. Including an improvement in...
Bass Extension:
Depending on the song, the R70x often do not sound as though they are lacking in bass. Per the old open-back shortcoming though, they lack sub bass extension. As Amir's distortion chart implies, digital equalization of the bass is problematic. The above mentioned M50x hybrid pads remedy this in a much more graceful manner. Extension is much improved. It pounds in places it should, where it may have previously only thumped. We don't suddenly have closed-back bass, but it is markedly improved. What's more, distortion is not problematic in the way EQ can cause it to be.
I highly recommend trying the M50x hybrid pads. Since I have a pair of M50x and M40x, I also had the Elite Velour version. These are another good option. Less Midbass, so a more linear bass response. They also have more in the upper Midrange/lower treble. One could argue it's closer the stock sound profile. I find them less plush and comfy to wear than the Hybrids though. They still have the better shape for the ear though, so no folding. I also enjoy the warmer sound of the Hybrid. But, it's good to have options, and you can't go wrong with either.
Wild Card: That Cable
Aside from the ear pads, the other thing that irritated me was the cable. I hate that cable. It's stiff and microphonic. Combine those qualities with a 3 meter length, and you have a recipe for irritation and distraction. Is it perfectly functional? Yes. Did it consistently bug me? Yes. What's more, the dual cable with locking 2.5mm connectors was designed so it didn't matter which was left and which was right. A neat concept, it works no matter which cable is connected to which side. The down side is it's a proprietary design used by only a solitary headphone model. "Boutique". Looked around at Amazon, Ali, Ebay; few options, and certainly none of quality for less than an arm or a leg. Audiophile Ninja offers a glorious customizable cable. It's also a reasonable price considering the quality.
On the topic of necessary driving power, I have a few of the headphones on Amir's chart. Oddly enough, despite it's place on said chart, it does not seem any more difficult to drive than the AKG K7XX. This is on a Topping DX3 Pro+ at the same volume setting, nothing changed but the headphones. Volume seemed roughly equivalent, and both a fair bit louder than the HE400se. Interpret this anecdotal observation as you will.
After the minor changes, these are now one of my favorite sets of headphones. Neutral tonality with a slight warm tilt, lightweight, and (now) comfortable. Lack of aberrant peaks means they minimize listening fatigue. Combine this with light and comfy and you have some great extended listening headphones.
*Edited for some additional information/context and a lot of typos.
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I don't know how true it is as it's not a genre I listen to but I've heard it said some of their models excel with female J-pop music. I have two Audio Technica headphones, the MSR-7 is a very 'normal' V shaped tuning but it does what it does very well and has proven to be well made and durable (I've had them quite a few years and they're still immaculate and have shown no degradation) and the 70x of this review which I tend to view as an improved and better version of the sort of tuning of my ancient Sennheiser HD580. Some of their other models have a very forward mid-range.
I know this may sound like I'm trying to rationalize mediocrity, but I like the fact that Audio Technica is a bit of a loose canon and often does things differently. The wing system is certainly not for everyone but it is great for some, and their odd ball tuning options do offer just that, options. Their IEMs are the same, their wired monitoring IEMs are excellent in my opinion, but some of their other IEMs and almost all of their wireless IEMs are all over the place. It's a bit like my attitude to Grado, I don't like the Grado tuning but I also think the headphone world would be poorer without them.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
As an example I would take the HD800S and HD820. These two headphones, at least to me, have similar spatial qualities. There is slightly more treble in the HD800S though.
There are no headphones that are difficult to drive. It is just that some headphones require a higher voltage to drive them to louder listening levels.
The R70X is 104dB/V where the 7XX is 102dB/V.
This means the R70X is slightly more sensitive than the 7XX.
The R70X is equally sensitive as the HD650. This means that for a lot of people, listening at sensible levels, the 1V out of a phone is enough.
On top of that the efficiency of the R70X is higher as well as at the same SPL the R70X draws 10x less current. And amps perform better (lower distortion) on higher impedances.
That doesn't change the fact that the AT drivers can handle 1W (and thus even more peak level) and can be connected directly to speaker amp outputs. These drivers, just like the ones from Denon, some studio Sony's and most planars are hard to blow up electrically, certainly while wearing them. You'll destroy your ears before you blow up the driver.
w series
nyxnyxnyx
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Have you done any dissection to Denon/biodynamic drivers variants? I believe some modders said they are very capable drivers but they (the companies) didn't utilize them to the fullest extent.
I've always wondered what are some characteristics about them that the brands don't mention in the user manual. Stuff like actual distortion at FR/SPL are pretty much discovered by experienced members of the community, not by the manufacturers actually revealing them. It's kinda baffling.
Do you mean Foster's Biodynamic drivers that have been used as OEM by Denon in the past? BTW I am not moderator but I think that these kind of questions if it prolonged to a long discussion usually get's better served by a separate thread, from experience on how they like the review threads to be.
nyxnyxnyx
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I mean not only foster's drivers but the later drivers made by Denon themselves (Dx200 series), along with other biodynamic drivers like from EMU. I thought it's a small question that will get one quick answer so I think it doesn't warrant a thread, but I understand your point.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
As PeteL mentioned, these are all Foster drivers also the newer ones.
I think the newer drivers from Denon are still produced (but perhaps on special order) by Foster.
Modders sometimes make the weirdest and, more often than not, unsubstantiated claims about 'improved performance', not only about Foster driver based headphones.
I think the newer drivers from Denon are still produced (but perhaps on special order) by Foster.
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