Audio science reviewers are not audiophiles?

[Petrushka]

I don't really agree with this.

This is what it takes to be accepted into certain corners of the audiophile world, and frankly I think those particular corners are as rife with delusion and superstition as they are with useful experience or knowledge.

A person can develop very good critical listening skills within a year or two if they set their mind to it. And the price of systems you've heard or the gear you've tweaked has nothing to do with that.

Yes, experience listening counts for something, to relate measurements to actual audible phenomena, linking the objective and subjective is critical. But I think at least in this community you can be accepted as long as you have enthusiasm and a willingness to learn and explore the facts.

Does that 10,000 hours thing apply to medicine and deciding who to accept treatment from?

 

[kemmler3D]

Does that 10,000 hours thing apply to medicine and deciding who to accept treatment from?

The 10,000 hours thing was invented by Malcolm Gladwell, who admits being more interested in writing an interesting story than actual science... and is frankly one of the worst BS-perpetrators of the contemporary era, mainly because his form of BS is subtle and pleasant to read...

Malcolm Gladwell critique: David and Goliath misrepresents the scienc…

archived 19 Aug 2024 20:10:45 UTC

archive.is

Sometimes Gladwell characterizes his work as something other than explaining science. In a recent interview on the Brian Lehrer show, Gladwell said that he puts the story first and the science second, and that he thinks discussions of the concerns of “academic research” in the sciences—i.e., logic, evidence, and truth—are “inaccessible” to his readers:
“I am a story-teller, and I look to academic research … for ways of augmenting story-telling. The reason I don’t do things their way is because their way has a cost: it makes their writing inaccessible. If you are someone who has as their goal … to reach a lay audience … you can’t do it their way.”

Never miss an opportunity to call out Gladwell... he's completely full of it and should be ignored by everybody who cares about the truth.

 

[pseudoid]

I was not going read it again but can someone explain what he meant by CDs=bad?

 

[Salt]

Does that 10,000 hours thing apply to medicine and deciding who to accept treatment from?

No.

 

[solderdude]

I was not going read it again but can someone explain what he meant by CDs=bad?

That wasn't in the article but just from the Tony_E rant/reply to that article.

His reasoning probably is ....just 16 bits and 44.1kHz sample rate isn't enough.
Audiophiles want at least 24 bits and minimum 96kHz sample rate or better yet the much higher rated and pure analog vinyl discs.

 

[Jinjuku]

I'm an enthusiast first and foremost. I'm a realist 2nd, I'm an economist 3rd.

My experience is that your traditional woowoo audiophile has about 60 to 70% of their stack costs sunk downstream of the speaker. I remember one such at AudgioPyleStyle with ~22K in setup and the speakers were about $9k of it.

I asked them a simple question (never could get a straight answer). If I spent $19K on speakers and $3K on downstream could they beat the sound with their allocation?

 

[master_arthur]

I don't really agree with this.

This is what it takes to be accepted into certain corners of the audiophile world, and frankly I think those particular corners are as rife with delusion and superstition as they are with useful experience or knowledge.

A person can develop very good critical listening skills within a year or two if they set their mind to it. And the price of systems you've heard or the gear you've tweaked has nothing to do with that.

Yes, experience listening counts for something, to relate measurements to actual audible phenomena, linking the objective and subjective is critical. But I think at least in this community you can be accepted as long as you have enthusiasm and a willingness to learn and explore the facts.

I am glad ASR is more accepting, but a lot of audiophile communities are like that.

But for the sake of argument, if your setup is not capable of producing high fidelity, then how can you claim you are an audiophile?

The same question can be asked by subjectivists and objectivists.

 

[kemmler3D]

if your setup is not capable of producing high fidelity, then how can you claim you are an audiophile?

According to definitions I like to use (audiophile = anyone who is interested in / enthusiastic about sound quality) there is no need for gatekeeping based on gear.

If you have a $200 speaker setup you got at a yard sale, but you take the time to learn about room modes and do room correction, and talk about it online, in my eyes you're as much an audiophile as the guy with a $100K Wilson setup... maybe more so - because you're in it for the reality of how sound actually works, and not for the status.

IMO "audiophile" is not a status you reach, it's just a label for your level of interest in sound.

 

[Petrushka]

The 10,000 hours thing was invented by Malcolm Gladwell, who admits being more interested in writing an interesting story than actual science... and is frankly one of the worst BS-perpetrators of the contemporary era, mainly because his form of BS is subtle and pleasant to read...

Malcolm Gladwell critique: David and Goliath misrepresents the scienc…

archived 19 Aug 2024 20:10:45 UTC

archive.is

Never miss an opportunity to call out Gladwell... he's completely full of it and should be ignored by everybody who cares about the truth.

I liked his article on Ketchup.

 

[Robin L]

Meanwhile I'm listening to Emanuel Ax and Yo-Yo Ma playing Brahms' Cello Sonatas. On a CD that cost me all of 98 cents.

Guess I don't belong here. I spend hours listening to music and have collected many hours of CDs for ridiculously low prices as the format is so out of step with the times. Stopped using my soldering iron about ten years ago and have no intention of ever using it again. Must not be an audiophile.

 

[Petrushka]

Meanwhile I'm listening to Emanuel Ax and Yo-Yo Ma playing Brahms' Cello Sonatas. On a CD that cost me all of 98 cents.

Guess I don't belong here. I spend hours listening to music and have collected many hours of CDs for ridiculously low prices as the format is so out of step with the times. Stopped using my soldering iron about ten years ago and have no intention of ever using it again. Must not be an audiophile.

I have 1300 CDs, all converted to FLAC. 90 percent came from garage sales. They were curated and represent maybe five percent of the possible purchases. I did buy a lot of things just to expand my horizons. That’s a seldom talked about benefit of cheap.

 

[Robin L]

I have 1300 CDs, all converted to FLAC. 90 percent came from garage sales. They were curated and represent May five percent of the possible purchases. I did buy a lot of things just to expand my horizons. That’s a seldom talked about benefit of cheap.

Stopped converting my CDs to ALAC. Spent $15 for 15 CDs today. Includes Gesualdo by the Hilliard Ensemble, Victoria by the Sixteen, Bernstein's Symphonies and Chichester Psalms by Bernstein, some Terry Riley and some Ligeti. Most of these pieces of music previously unheard.

 

[antcollinet]

there is no need for gatekeeping based on gear.

This. Gatekeepers can - as a group - politely - go away. I gatekeep all gatekeepers.

 

[DMill]

I’m an audiophile. What is wrong with that? I like music that is true to the source. I don’t know what Lennon greenlighted in 67 but I’m pretty sure he had a clue. I get a bit tired of audiophile used as something bad. It’s not.

 

[Timcognito]

I’m an audiophile. What is wrong with that? I like music that is true to the source. I don’t know what Lennon greenlighted in 67 but I’m pretty sure he had a clue. I get a bit tired of audiophile used as something bad. It’s not.

Plus it is nebulous title that anyone can tag with sentiments they want. Is it about gear or music or both, a mile wide and deep.

 

[fatoldgit]

According to definitions I like to use (audiophile = anyone who is interested in / enthusiastic about sound quality) there is no need for gatekeeping based on gear.

If you have a $200 speaker setup you got at a yard sale, but you take the time to learn about room modes and do room correction, and talk about it online, in my eyes you're as much an audiophile as the guy with a $100K Wilson setup... maybe more so - because you're in it for the reality of how sound actually works, and not for the status.

IMO "audiophile" is not a status you reach, it's just a label for your level of interest in sound.

this 100%.

Blokes that buy superyachts arent boat enthusiasts.... Blokes that have a garage full of supercars arent car enthusiasts.

A real yachty started sailing at 10 years of age in some leaky tub in a back yard pond and has progressed up the food chain but is real hands on.

A real car enthusiast started handing wrenches to his dad at 10 years of age and has progressed up the food chain but is real hands on.

Sure, not everyone can be hands on in the technical sense BUT hands on in audio can take on many forms (vintage audio, modding at the board level, buggering around with DSP/software/PI's, curating/building your music collection/digital tags, building out your room with treatments, just trying different stuff/topologies/tech for the hell of it etc).

Thats the beauty of this hobby... people with different types of skills/interests/budgets can participate equally.

You can be a cheap skate and get a massive thrill/kick out of building a system that sounds really good, you learn lots of stuff for bugger all and no tech skills needed.

None of this has to be objective, subjective is fine...its really how much time you put into your system, no matter how cost effective it is thats makes you a real audio enthusiast.

Handing over a wad of cash to a dealer to buy some gear that needs to be delivered in a furniture truck doesnt make you an audio enthusiast.

Peter

 

[pseudoid]

Blokes that buy superyachts arent boat enthusiasts.... Blokes that have a garage full of supercars arent car enthusiasts.

Ted Turner and Jay Leno? You can be both: An enthusiast, as well as having a boat/truck load of money!

 

[WillBrink]

I'm an enthusiast first and foremost. I'm a realist 2nd, I'm an economist 3rd.

My experience is that your traditional woowoo audiophile has about 60 to 70% of their stack costs sunk downstream of the speaker. I remember one such at AudgioPyleStyle with ~22K in setup and the speakers were about $9k of it.

I asked them a simple question (never could get a straight answer). If I spent $19K on speakers and $3K on downstream could they beat the sound with their allocation?

I think we all grow up assuming equal allocation will yield the best audio, and it goes against the innate need for balance and symmetry we humans like so much to realize 80-90% of $ to the one thing most responsible for what we hear (speakers) will yield the superior audio. It offends our senses really and we have to overcome it with logic and objective reality, not a popular thing among many an audiophile.

 

[fatoldgit]

Ted Turner and Jay Leno? You can be both: An enthusiast, as well as having a boat/truck load of money!

sure... absolutely.

And as much as he is despised in his industry, Larry Ellison of Oracle/America's Cup fame.

But I think these are the exceptions that prove the rule.

People with money are generally obsessed with money (I know many having worked with many successful IT sales people...noting I was a techie so I still have a soul) and it becomes a death spiral that sucks out their soul so nothing is left but the desire to attain more money and music is of the soul but these types have no space for it.

 

[Chrispy]

Audiophile has a few different meanings out there. I tend to run into people not into audio using that term to describe the crazier end of that what with special cables and tweakery etc. I tend to go with the definition about being enthusiastic about high-fidelity reproduction gear, and doesn't particularly have to be music either. I think of being a music lover as something broader than just hifi gear or audiophilia.