Audio Note speakers

[BDWoody]

goal is one thing. reality is ss amps do produce odd harmonics due to nature of negative feedback circuits. more or less of it.

Do you have any kind of technical background that you are speaking from, or are you just regurgitating the propaganda you've picked up along the way?

 

[Ro808]

KEF 105 used 3 point fixing on bass drivers. Still one of the best loudspeakers I've ever encountered. Yes, they are not especially sensitive, but watts are cheap:

Assuming one's happy to be scourged by Bextrene's (hideous) signature.

If a (hi-fi) loudspeaker needs more than a 'handful of watts' to come to life, it's basically defective.

Even if you are convinced of the 'importance of SINAD' as an indicator of 'quality', a 2x 40 watt amplifier has been at the top of the list for a number of years.

 

[DSJR]

Assuming one's happy to be scourged by Bextrene's (hideous) signature.

KEF and Spendor (and I should add Rogers too with the original LS3/6, although they diverged as time went on) had it well licked by the end, the BC1 by heavy cone doping. Vocals could sound incredibly natural and 'real' on the best examples, but those me-too speakers not well sorted, 'quacked' merrily away. The KEF 105 was a great speaker systen for the time, the slight 'coldness' on female voice, more the then-unusual flatter tonal balance I suspect, than actual 'colouration' in the drivers. The three-point bass (decouipled from the enclosure) wasn't too successful in UK rooms and the bass 'quality' could thicken up compared to prevous models. KEF abandoned it shortly after.

 

[Ro808]

I'm currently working with an engineer who has previously worked at B&W. Like me, he cannot understand why recent and current B&W speaker designs have deviated so much from the smooth FR and DI that was their target decades ago. However, he can confirm that they do have a target performance when they are listening to prototypes and, as long as their customers are satisfied with the products they produce they will continue to sell. I don't like the character of their speakers myself, but that's not to say others won't find them satisfying and they continue to get really good reviews so they must be doing something right?

The point is that I don't like to look at a product's measurements and decide, on that basis, that it is or is not worth listening to. As a designer I'm used to listening first and using measurements that help me make sensible decisions as to how to improve a prototype. I would hate to be a reviewer that tried to analyse and rank products based on measurement alone because I'm not convinced we are capable of measuring what we can hear. Take note that Erin and John Atkinson, among others, listen first and measure afterwards. I think that's the right way to evaluate any hi-fi product.

Until recently, R. Magalotti (also former B&C) was head of acoustic research at B&W. He undoubtedly knows a thing or two about acoustics and speaker technology.


Personally, I lost interest in B&W products a long time ago. However, at the time (1990s) this was a decent (sounding) small (desktop) monitor:

Back then, I bought several pairs for friends and most of them are still in use.

 

[MattHooper]

I’ve heard an audio note demo produce possibly my favourite sound at an audio show. Some fairly startling realistic acappella,
And jazz instruments such as sax.

I’ve also heard them sound very impressive at some other shows. That is standing out somewhat even from many other excellent contenders… like “ wow that really does sound like a harpsichord! (or violin or harp, etc.) “

And I auditioned a pair myself at a dealer. They sounded quite nice.

I get the appeal. They are doing something interesting.

Though to me, they tend to be overpriced.

 

[Mart68]

Assuming one's happy to be scourged by Bextrene's (hideous) signature.

If a (hi-fi) loudspeaker needs more than a 'handful of watts' to come to life, it's basically defective.

Even if you are convinced of the 'importance of SINAD' as an indicator of 'quality', a 2x 40 watt amplifier has been at the top of the list for a number of years.

I'm not much for the idea that driver material has an inherent 'sound'. How does that translate into air movement since that is what creates what we 'hear'? If there's a 'signature' it will show in measurements. It doesn't.

Nor am I much for the idea that loudspeakers that are not highly sensitive are no good. Too many counter-examples to take that as some sort of iron law.

In the context of Audionote it should be mentioned that their claimed sensitivity figures for their speakers are the best case. Across the whole FR, which is a true reflection, they are 4-6dB lower.

SINAD is a useful indicator, that's all. No-one knowledgeable claims otherwise.

None of my electronics are close to state of the art in SINAD (pre-amp/DAC is 35 years old) but sound quality is still outstanding across all variety of programme from acoustic jazz to heavy rock because the important things are taken care of and the nonsense disregarded.

 

[Mart68]

I’ve heard an audio note demo produce possibly my favourite sound at an audio show. Some fairly startling realistic acappella,
And jazz instruments such as sax.

I’ve also heard them sound very impressive at some other shows. That is standing out somewhat even from many other excellent contenders… like “ wow that really does sound like a harpsichord! (or violin or harp, etc.) “

And I auditioned a pair myself at a dealer. They sounded quite nice.

I get the appeal. They are doing something interesting.

Though to me, they tend to be overpriced.

I also get their appeal, again from show demos. But if I had my pick of the programme I'm pretty sure I could show up the flaws.

For me what they do is they make it sound like the instruments are coming right out the speakers, as opposed to being part of a recording. For example electric guitars sound like they are plugged directly into the speakers. There is an illusion of 'real instruments and voices' even though in reality it's just artifice.

That's the appeal - but it isn't the high fidelity they claim it to be.

 

[Purité Audio]

I only hear the speakers colouration , I just don’t see the appeal just like the cheap ‘Conet’ hifi I grew up with.
To spend that much money for colouration seems mad to me.
Keith

 

[Mart68]

I only hear the speakers colouration , I just don’t see the appeal just like the cheap ‘Conet’ hifi I grew up with.
To spend that much money for colouration seems mad to me.
Keith

It is mad given you could get the same presentation (if that's what's wanted) for a lot less money.

The cost of their speakers just makes no sense, they are so crude for the prices asked. Their DAC prices are risible.

But none of us is that rational about our audio equipment, no matter what we'd like to think, so it's probably wrong to get judgemental.

 

[Purité Audio]

It’s the ‘con’ aspect that I find vexing, to charge so much for such poor performance dressed up as ‘lifelike’ ‘real’ or some emotional connection nonsense.
Keith

 

[Mart68]

It’s the ‘con’ aspect that I find vexing, to charge so much for such poor performance dressed up as ‘lifelike’ ‘real’ or some emotional connection nonsense.
Keith

Their claim that they have got it right and everyone else has got it wrong - that's amusing to me, but not annoying. Salesman is going to sell.

I'd also argue that they do offer something different, unlike a lot of manufacturers who claim to do that but with no substance behind it.

They've been doing their thing for a long time now, no question there's a niche market for it.

Would I put them in the same bucket as the fuse and cable con artists? No, not entirely.

 

[Purité Audio]

Yup 50’s speaker and amp designs sold at hugely inflated prices.
Keith

 

[Pearljam5000]

Should I get the Genelec 8381 or Audio Note speakers for $65K?
It's a real dilemma

 

[DanielT]

In addition to the 8-inch bass driver and non-waveguided 1-inch tweeter, just to make it even more difficult to get a good sound, there was a craze a few decades ago in DIY circles to place that bass tweeter combo in a transmission line speaker design. So then we have the rather impossible challenge of getting a good, smooth on-off axes PLUS a hell of a challenge to suppress resonances due to the TL construction.
Also, if a TL is stuffed/muffled a lot, the sensitivity of the speakers is reduced a lot. Talk about making it difficult for yourself.

And here we are now.In connection with the purchase of some old used HiFi stuff, my friend got a pair of DIY TL speakers for free. They have a classic combo of KEF 8 inch B200 bass driver and 1 inch t27 tweeter. The seller has switched to a Sonos' loaf. He was actually going to throw the speakers away because he couldn't bring himself to sell them (guess at best he would have gotten maybe $100-120 for them)

You can test such speakers for fun. Maybe to experiment with different amounts of stuffing in them and if you think it's fun then compare and measure how it affects the sound. Measure on -off axes. Remove the passive crossover and plug in a digital DSP crossover and so on. Or just listen to them.
BUT that's a completely different thing than buying a pair of speakers that have an 8 inch bass driver and a 1 inch non waveguided tweeter for, #1 in this thread: They have so many models and they're not exactly cheap (can cost over $100K).

Picture of my friend's speaker that he got. He doesn't know much about them. He will pick them up in a week:


Edit:
Incidentally, IF you are interested in the combo 8 inch bass, 1 inch tweeter on a wide baffle, there are affordable alternatives. Has the Kef Cadenza been addressed earlier in the thread? On axes they are good anyway. I've had a couple of Cadenzas and I liked them.

(not mine in the pictures)

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Just check that the t27 tweeter is in good condition before buying.

Of course, a completely different price level than a pair of Audio Notes. Even so, I think a couple of old Cadenzas can give a couple of Audio Notes a real match. Winner there, I don't know.
(I'm betting on Kef Cadenza in this match)

 

[Sal1950]

I just don’t see the appeal just like the cheap ‘Conet’ hifi I grew up with.

Keith, what is Conet hifi? I googled it but couldn't come up with anything

Their claim that they have got it right and everyone else has got it wrong - that's amusing to me, but not annoying.

It's more than just "amusing" to me.
It's the lie that an entire industry of ridiculously priced & while being poor performing gear was built on.
Before the last few years when objective based HiFi evaluation came back into the public eye (ASR, Arcimagio, Audioholics, more)
the "sounds good to me" dogma had totally taken over the industry. Most any talk of measurements or DBT was looked down on with
the "I can hear things that can't be measured" BS retort. It's made a mockery of the High Fidelity industry and we're a laughing stock
anywhere that truly intelligent and technically knowledgeable people gather and discuss such things..
The worst part is that real development and progress has been stifled and in its place the snake-oil products and their marketing arms became king.
Read the leading review publications and you would believe that $30,000 amps, etc and $100,000 speakers are entry level products if
you are to expect good sound.
Yes, that's more than " amusing" to me.

 

[Mart68]

Keith, what is Conet hifi? I googled it but couldn't come up with anything


It's more than just "amusing" to me.
It's the lie that an entire industry of ridiculously priced & while being poor performing gear was built on.
Before the last few years when objective based HiFi evaluation came back into the public eye (ASR, Arcimagio, Audioholics, more)
the "sounds good to me" dogma had totally taken over the industry. Most any talk of measurements or DBT was looked down on with
the "I can hear things that can't be measured" BS retort. It's made a mockery of the High Fidelity industry and we're a laughing stock
anywhere that truly intelligent and technically knowledgeable people gather and discuss such things..
The worst part is that real development and progress has been stifled and in its place the snake-oil products and their marketing arms became king.
Read the leading review publications and you would believe that $30,000 amps, etc and $100,000 speakers are entry level products if
you are to expect good sound.
Yes, that's more than " amusing" to me.

Totally get what you're saying Sal, and you're not wrong, but I can't get that worked up about it.

 

[Purité Audio]

Keith, what is Conet hifi? I googled it but couldn't come up with anything


It's more than just "amusing" to me.
It's the lie that an entire industry of ridiculously priced & while being poor performing gear was built on.
Before the last few years when objective based HiFi evaluation came back into the public eye (ASR, Arcimagio, Audioholics, more)
the "sounds good to me" dogma had totally taken over the industry. Most any talk of measurements or DBT was looked down on with
the "I can hear things that can't be measured" BS retort. It's made a mockery of the High Fidelity industry and we're a laughing stock
anywhere that truly intelligent and technically knowledgeable people gather and discuss such things..
The worst part is that real development and progress has been stifled and in its place the snake-oil products and their marketing arms became king.
Read the leading review publications and you would believe that $30,000 amps, etc and $100,000 speakers are entry level products if
you are to expect good sound.
Yes, that's more than " amusing" to me.

Sal it was ‘Comet’ my misspelling they were a chain of electrical retailers, they used to produce a catalogue at the back of which were the really top of the range Sony for example components.
The local one didn’t carry them ( I am not sure any of their stores did) but one could dream. I much later bought my Sony PS-B80 biotracer because of that damn catalogue.
Keith

 

[Mart68]

Sal it was ‘Comet’ my misspelling they were a chain of electrical retailers, they used to produce a catalogue at the back of which were the really top of the range Sony for example components.
The local one didn’t carry them ( I am not sure any of their stores did) but one could dream. I much later bought my Sony PS-B80 biotracer because of that damn catalogue.
Keith

They never had the really cheap bargains they advertised in stock, either. Funny that.

 

[Sal1950]

They never had the really cheap bargains they advertised in stock, either. Funny that.

Over here we call that "bait and switch".

 

[MattHooper]

It is mad given you could get the same presentation (if that's what's wanted) for a lot less money.

How exactly and what would that entail?

First, to reiterate, I find audio notes speakers get ridiculously expensive for “ what they are” in my own price performance criteria. But I did seriously audition a pair that I would have bought had I liked them enough (AN-E model if I remember correctly).

I personally I am super picky about which loudspeakers compel me want to sit and listen for long periods of time. It’s actually pretty rare for me. So when I find a speaker that lights my fire, if it’s within my budget, I don’t care too much that some other audiophiles will say “ this can be done cheaper, it’s overpriced.” I’m happy to let the speaker designers spend lots of time designing a loudspeaker that turns out to be exactly what I want. The materials may not be super expensive, but they spent a long time dialling the sound in and hit on exactly what I’m looking for, so I’m willing to pay for that.

I’ve often seen people say “ this speaker isn’t worth it” often sighting material costs or whatever. I’ve seen it even said about speaker brands I own, Joseph audio, or about other brands that I really enjoyed, for instance Devore O/96 speakers “ it’s just a 10 inch woofer and a tweeter in a wide box!”

Fine, but they are normally isn’t replicas of the very same speakers out there for sale at half the price or whatever. That seems to just leave it to “ somebody could build something like this much cheaper .”

But I have no interest whatsoever putting time into learning speaking design and making my own speakers. So the advantage of DIYing some cheaper version hold no appeal to me. I’d rather buy a finished product that exactly suits my needs.

And those saying “ anyone can put together the speakers you are talking about” I would say “ fine go ahead, if you can build an exact replica of this loudspeaker, that sounds precisely the same, with just as high-quality fit and finish, and sell it to me for half the price, go for it. And I also hope that if you set up a company to do this, it will remain viable and not close after a year, leaving me out to lunch if I need a part or service.”