Audio Note speakers

[Rõlnnbacke]

As I've mentioned, in a few of my encounters with AN speakers I've found them quite pleasant, sometimes even quite impressive with certain tracks. I don't think everyone who enjoys the AN presentation is a dupe. However I feel their speakers are grossly overpriced, not to mention the company seems to make various bogus claims.

I didn't mean to ridicule people who like how AN sounds*, only the snake oil side of the brand, like, as you mention, the high prices, etc.

*I might ridicule myself: Never heard anything of AN. I just "don't buy it"

 

[Anton D]

Never heard anything of AN.

That should not stop people from having definitive inarguable positions.

 

[Audio Science Pal]

What's the deal with Audio Note speakers ?
They have so many models and they're not exactly cheap (can cost over $100K)
And it seems they're "legendary " speakers on other audiophile forums.
What's so special about them ?
View attachment 354478

They look nice and probably sound okay. Some people spend lots more money on "art" that just hangs or sits in their house, doing nothing else.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Feedback is time distortion.

Negative Feedback (NFB) and specifically global (Global =from output of amp to input of amp vs. Local = from output of a stage to input of the same stage) induces distortion caused by propagation delay. IOW by the time the distortion on the input propagates through the amp and then the feedback propagates from the output of the amp back to the input it's late and therefore no longer an accurate representation of the distortion that it is trying to correct.

.... aaand you have no clue about the speed of the negative feedback correction. It is going at the speed of light and in a few inches length in an amplifier it is instantaneous.
OK, we get it - you like colored loudspeakers and distorting SE amps. Nothing wrong with that. But please stop trying to justify your choice with your "scientific" explanation - it is laughable, at least.

 

[Ron Texas]

The Mustang is the only "car" that they still make and the Mustang is fairly reliable when you consider it is a sports car - most people are willing to put up with less than great reliability IF you get performance - that is why people are willing to buy German cars - I am NOT one of them. I don't believe you should TRADE reliability for performance - I feel like if you pay $35,000 for a Toyota Camry and it has outstanding reliability (which they do) then if you pay $70,000 (double the price) you should retain that reliability and then ADD performance on top of it. But I respect those who don't care because perhaps they have the money and patience to have their Mercedes in the shop paying $2,000 for brakes that last 1/4 as long as the $300 brake job on the Camry.

If the Camry was as good as you say, everyone would have one and the other manufacturers would have gone broke ages ago. I get to drive a Camry at least once a year because they are prevalent in rental fleets. It has to be the most boring thing with 4 wheels. Rental companies buy their cars at a deep discount because these models are in oversupply. Consumers want SUV's (or CUV's as unit body SUV's are called) and not sedans, so the Camry is available cheap and sits on the lot next to Malibu's and Sentra's. They all put me to sleep. Camry's break down less than other makes but the difference between Toyotas and just average isn't huge the way it used to be. The vehicles which stay on the road a really long time are the heavy duty ones like full size pickups and the Suburban. They may have a few more repairs, but they keep on going for what seems like forever.

 

[LTig]

Feedback is time distortion.

Negative Feedback (NFB) and specifically global (Global =from output of amp to input of amp vs. Local = from output of a stage to input of the same stage) induces distortion caused by propagation delay. IOW by the time the distortion on the input propagates through the amp and then the feedback propagates from the output of the amp back to the input it's late and therefore no longer an accurate representation of the distortion that it is trying to correct.

Thus Feedback is a form of "correction" to pretty up the graphs. Auto-Tune is an attempt to pretty up the singer. It's not exactly the same - but they both frak up the sound and make music sound like crap.

SET amplifiers are connected to speakers with HE and benign impedance so the argument that they have vast effects on frequency response is silly - Sure they will be horrendous on an Apogee Scintilla that dips to 1 ohm but then those are not the sorts of speakers that get connected to SET amps. SS amps will drive all speakers - so what? All the best speakers I have heard have all been able to be driven with an 8 watt SET - all the speakers that I have heard over the last 35 years that need 100 watts have largely sucked donkey balls.

You really have no clue what you're talking about. This is all just plain wrong, as anyone with a basic understanding of electronics and the law of Ohm knows.

 

[DanielT]

Speaking of negative feedback. At 7:30 into the video, Bruno Putzeys talks about the advantages of NFB and he has a lot of experience and deep knowledge about designing amplifiers:

about | PURIFI

purifi-audio.com

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

Speaking of negative feedback. At 7:30 into the video, Bruno Putzeys talks about the advantages of NFB and he has a lot of experience and deep knowledge about designing amplifiers:

about | PURIFI

purifi-audio.com

Negative feedback has a different effect on amplifiers than on audiophiles, sometimes almost like positive feedback.

 

[Ron Texas]

Negative feedback has a different effect on amplifiers than on audiophiles, sometimes almost like positive feedback.

I prefer positive feedback myself, but mostly I get BS.

 

[Richard Austen]

If the Camry was as good as you say, everyone would have one and the other manufacturers would have gone broke ages ago. I get to drive a Camry at least once a year because they are prevalent in rental fleets. It has to be the most boring thing with 4 wheels. Rental companies buy their cars at a deep discount because these models are in oversupply. Consumers want SUV's (or CUV's as unit body SUV's are called) and not sedans, so the Camry is available cheap and sits on the lot next to Malibu's and Sentra's. They all put me to sleep. Camry's break down less than other makes but the difference between Toyotas and just average isn't huge the way it used to be. The vehicles which stay on the road a really long time are the heavy duty ones like full size pickups and the Suburban. They may have a few more repairs, but they keep on going for what seems like forever.

According to Consumer reports 7 of the top 10 most reliable cars are Toyota - in first place the Toyota 4Runner, second place Toyota Camry Hybrd, third place Toyota Camry Gas engine. I never said anything about "being fun to drive." If you want fun AND reliable get a Miata (Miata is always the answer).

I recently got back from Manila - 99.9% of the taxis are Toyota VIOS - on a trip the driver had to pull over - open the hood and put in a gallon of water into the radiator as it was overeating - he went back to the trunk and put in a gallon of coolant - then went back again and put in another few litres.

Wait Toyota is supposed to be reliable so I ask him about the car (obviously it happens a lot since he had this liquid in the trunk ready). 17-year-old Toyota VIos (4 cyl like a Corolla) the car is a complete wreck on the outside. Manila is hot - these guys drive all day - stop-and-go traffic is an understatement in Manila - how many km I ask him - 300,000 then he says - but it's already gone to zero - 1,300,000 km - original engine and manual transmission - that's why taxi companies use them and hot Hyundai or GM. Here in Hong Kong - 99.9% are Toyota Comforts, In Macau they're Toyota Camrys. Note: there is a difference between fleet versions, rental versions and the higher-level trim versions you buy at a dealer. Ie; a Camry at the dealer is far nicer than the Camry used as a Taxi. The 2025 Camry is supposed to be a massive improvement over the last generation. Not that I am rushing out to buy one just saying that for people who want a car as an appliance that is reliable - the reason it is the number one selling Sedan in its class is that people like me owned American cars and got fed up as to how crummy they were - and Toyota and Honda were real eye-openers. Taxi companies need reliability to make money - downtime is costly.

Again fun or boring is a totally different thing. I don't see anyone associating Fun with Toyota - maybe the GR86 and Celica. Body-on-frame trucks and SUVs are still good from the American makes from my research. While the old 4Runner is the most reliable (and Hilux in other markets) the things are stone age inside compared to say a Ford F150.

 

[Richard Austen]

A Future Without Feedback? | Stereophile.com

Over the years as a reviewer, I have tracked the swings of opinion and popularity of various audio ideas and technologies. Amid a sea of advanced designs that achieve powerful technical performance and laudable specifications, I'm reminded of a major blind listening test of 18 power amplifiers...

www.stereophile.com

Richard Vandersteen on Feedback https://www.stereophile.com/content/richard-vandersteen-keep-truckin-page-2

My info may be out of date I will concede that - Can you guys show me a negative feedback SS amplifier measurement where the Negative feedback has been turned off? In other words, do you guys have the measurements BEFORE the negative feedback kicks in? Feedback is "reactive" so Can you show me what happens "before" it reacts?

 

[LTig]

Richard Vandersteen on Feedback https://www.stereophile.com/content/richard-vandersteen-keep-truckin-page-2

He speaks about feedback to correct the speaker response. This is a totally different subject and much harder to achieve, due to the reaction time of the speaker. Don't confuse it with feedback used within an amplifier.

My info may be out of date I will concede that - Can you guys show me a negative feedback SS amplifier measurement where the Negative feedback has been turned off? In other words, do you guys have the measurements BEFORE the negative feedback kicks in? Feedback is "reactive" so Can you show me what happens "before" it reacts?

Without feedback amplifiers have a much higher gain and hence are unusable for the given task.

Its actually almost impossible to design an amplifier without any negative feedback because the gain of even a single amplifying device (tube, FET, bipolar transistor) is too high. Any power amplifier said to have no negative feedback uses local negative feedback around each single device (triode tubes may be the only exception since their gain is rather low) to keep the open loop gain low. Any book about electronics though contains the formulas which proof that global feedback over several amplifying stages results in higher linearity than using local feedback around each individual stage. It's just math.

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

Feedback is "reactive" so Can you show me what happens "before" it reacts?

I was once told that a condutor with its electrons can be compared to a tube filled with marbles. When you push at the marble at one side, the marble at the other side is being pushed directly. So it reacts inmediatly, there is no time to hear anything. I've no time either: it is half past one in the night here, so I'll call it a day. Excuse me if I'm wrong!

 

[Anton D]

Apologies for posting videos, but these are right up the alley Rolnnbacke mentions

First:

You can hop in at 4:20 for this precise topic.

Second:

I enjoyed these, hope you do, too!

I love learning about this stuff, in case this guy is wrong.

 

[Ron Texas]

@Richard Austen You missed the part about how Toyotas are more reliable, but they aren't wildly more reliable. Like I said, if Toyotas are so wonderful, why aren't they the only auto manufacturer left on this planet.

Something else is bothering me about you. I checked your content and all your posts are in this thread. I see that as the markings of a troll.

 

[Doodski]

A Future Without Feedback? | Stereophile.com

Over the years as a reviewer, I have tracked the swings of opinion and popularity of various audio ideas and technologies. Amid a sea of advanced designs that achieve powerful technical performance and laudable specifications, I'm reminded of a major blind listening test of 18 power amplifiers...

www.stereophile.com

Richard Vandersteen on Feedback https://www.stereophile.com/content/richard-vandersteen-keep-truckin-page-2

My info may be out of date I will concede that - Can you guys show me a negative feedback SS amplifier measurement where the Negative feedback has been turned off? In other words, do you guys have the measurements BEFORE the negative feedback kicks in? Feedback is "reactive" so Can you show me what happens "before" it reacts?

I just dropped into this thread after seeing @Ron Texas's post to you.

Feedback is considered as instantaneous and not reactive.

 

[kemmler3D]

I just dropped into this thread after seeing @Ron Texas's post to you.

Feedback is considered as instantaneous and not reactive.

Indeed, this is why we didn't get a true emulation of an analog synthesizer (with zero-delay feedback in a digital simulation) until 2012 or so. https://u-he.com/products/diva/

Emulating analog feedback with a bit of delay is easy... emulating the actual circuits with (heavily touted) zero delay feedback is apparently quite hard and CPU-intensive. Even on my fairly decent (if slightly old) desktop it takes about 1/8 of the CPU just to run a couple voices of this thing.

If there was audible delay in electronic circuit feedback, well, it wouldn't be so hard to simulate on a computer.

 

[Ron Texas]

This thread is off course. We need to be discussing wine, women and song.

 

[A Surfer]

This thread is off course. We need to be discussing wine, women and song.

Or better yet be with women having wine and song.

 

[Ron Texas]

Or better yet be with women having wine and song.

That's the general idea.