Audio Note speakers

[ta240]

My experience is generally the opposite. My first impression always sticks. I'm a "tone/timbre" first guy, so voices and instruments I like have to sound "right" to my perception - invoke certain "colors" in my mind - and that is pretty immediately the case or not. If I think "wow that acoustic guitar sounds RIGHT, I can accept that as an acoustic guitar, not some electronic deviation" then we are off to a good start and most other instruments will likely sound good to me. I've yet to have such an impression reversed over time.

That makes sense. For someone that can pick out individual details and tell if tone/timbre is correct it would be easier to know faster if they will like it in the long run. Music is like graphic design for me, I can't always tell what is wrong, just that something is wrong.

The closest experience I've had to what you mention had to do with amplifiers. (And if this triggers certain folks I don't give a damn...)...

My tube amp story goes the other direction. I built a SE tube amp and was completely in love with the sound. And instead of just listening and enjoying it, I read posts online. Posts that said "this huge capacitor will make it sound better", "these other capacitors will sound amazing", "an LED here instead of a capacitor will make it sound better" and "these are the better voltages for it". I proceeded to change this, that and the other thing. I moved wires, moved mounting points, crammed a huge capacitor in it, all the while just imagining if it sounded so good now how crazy good would it sound when I was done. Instead it sounded worse. I wanted to go back but I had changed too many things and no matter how close I tried to get it back to the original it never got there. Along the way it gained and then finally lost a hum. Someday, maybe I'll dismantle it and start from scratch to see if I can recapture the magic.

 

[Ron Texas]

A "lot?" From whom? Can you point to even one bit of "misleading rhetoric" from me, for instance?

A lot of it. I don't have the time, and I know you will not budge one bit, so why should I bother.I will double down and say that the if it makes you happy is a dead end and juvenile. Bring a bottle of hot sauce to a French restaurant and notice how everyone will be staring at you thinking what a lowbrow. Wear heavily tinted glasses at an art exhibition and the same will happen. Taken to its logical conclusion it can be used to justify any kind of deviant behavior which will not land one in prison.

The buy what you like thing is exactly why the so called hi-fi sound exists. It's colored but sounds good in a brief audition to someone who doesn't know squat. They will like it, buy it, and get tired of it fast. I didn't make this up. It's been said many times here and even in subjectivist forums. The philosophy of ASR is to help people to avoid these mistakes. So here you are telling everyone the whole ASR thing is meaningless, buy what you like. It's not an intelligent like. It's a like that is not the product of careful shopping and listening. So, I have to look down on anyone who goes down that road. To me AN is in the same boat as Tekton. The main difference is the owner of Tekton shot his mouth off when he should have laid low. The whole thing is low brow and very much a part of the snake oil culture.

I can't stop anyone from making this mistake, but I can sure say my piece about it. You can say your piece, but don't forget this site is about audio science and not audio whatever you like. Expect push back. Sure, there are many flavors of ice cream. You can choose the rotten fish flavor if that's what you like and it doesn't make you vomit.

Maybe you like owning colored speakers and dumping them after a couple of years. Maybe you are rich, or maybe you will never be because of this behavior. You can do what you like. It will not cause the end of western civilization although there are many other processes which are working towards that goal. However, if you want to debate with me, this is what you will get.

 

[MattHooper]

A lot of it. I don't have the time, and I know you will not budge one bit, so why should I bother.I will double down and say that the if it makes you happy is a dead end and juvenile. Bring a bottle of hot sauce to a French restaurant and notice how everyone will be staring at you thinking what a lowbrow. Wear heavily tinted glasses at an art exhibition and the same will happen. Taken to its logical conclusion it can be used to justify any kind of deviant behavior which will not land one in prison.

In the above, you are not reaching "logical conclusions." Rather it seems slippery-slope hysteria and moralizing.

Just what percentage of music lovers, through the years including today, do you think actually listened to music on really accurate equipment? Just think about how teeny that niche would be. So...all the rest have been enjoying the music wrong? Just a bunch of "lowbrows" not *really* appreciating the music correctly? Just how snobbish and puritanical - and justifying of off-putting audiophile caricatures - are we supposed to get here?

We can explain what type of equipment makes for accurate reproduction of sound. So anyone who wants that goal can walk that path. But to go further and imply music lovers who don't buy their music gear for The Ultimate Fidelity like an ASR audiophile - buying "what they like" - as if it's on the sliding scale to moral reprobates is....ridiculous.

I've spent untold number of posts on other forums defending exactly the usefulness of ASR and Amirs reviews and measurements! Of course it makes sense for an audiophile to have due diligance before purchasing speakers. You seem to think that it's typical for other audiophiles to not do any research or comparative auditioning when buying speakers.

The buy what you like thing is exactly why the so called hi-fi sound exists. It's colored but sounds good in a brief audition to someone who doesn't know squat. They will like it, buy it, and get tired of it fast. I didn't make this up. It's been said many times here and even in subjectivist forums.

That assumption has been made numerous times on ASR: that purchasing ASR-approved gear will lead to satisfaction, and long-term ownership, whereas other 'typical audiophile' approaches will entail the type of gear fetish that will typically lead to merry-go-round buying. But the "longer terms satisfaction" difference has not, from what I've seen, actually been established. Most forums end up with polls on who owned what for how long. Generally find a range, which includes people who've owned their speakers for many years.

For instance, there's a poll on Steve Hoffman Forums, How Long Have You Had Your Speakers?

How Long Have You Had Your Speakers?

I’ve had my main speakers Klipschorns for about 50 years now. The only others I’ve purchased in that time are the Elac Navis arb-51 powered speakers...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

Here's a selection from the first 3 pages. I left out some who'd bought speakers more recently, but the answers were predominantly 10 years and beyond:

I’ve had my main speakers Klipschorns for about 50 years now.
10 yrs here!
My B&W Nautilus, over 20 years
~20Yrs and counting.
30 yrs
Just over 5 yrs now, no plans to change
10 years,
Spendor S100's since 1990
HPM-150's for 44 years... (1977)
One pair is over 20 years old; the other almost 1 year old.
More than 30years,
Ohm Towers around 10 years
Triangle Titus 202 monitors (2002) ... so 20 years soon
I have had my old Mission M71's for about 25 years
Still running Advents from 1974
I've had my Gemme Audio Tantos, since early 2012, or nearly 10 years. I've had my Paradigm Studio 60s, since 2002 ornear 20 years.
Peerless 1000MKII - had them since 1986 and can't hear any reason to change them.
The floorstanders and sub in my profile have lived with me for the last 14 years. Not planning on changing them any time soon.
15 yrs (main 2-channel - aurum cantus)
Epos ES11, purchased in 1994. Audio Physic Virgo 2, purchased in 1997.
25 years
After 24 years, I converted my Aerial Acoustics 10T into surround speakers when I purchased a used pair of 7T to replace them.
22 years more or less,
I have had my Dynaco A35's since October 1974 so for 47 years and they still sound great to me.
Infinity IM2.6. About 20 years now
45 years for my main speakers. Got them in March 1976.

So it's one thing to extoll which speakers are more accurate; it's another to make empirical claims about which speakers people will actually be satisfied with in real world
use. You don't have, as far as I know, scientific back up for THAT claim. And we know there have been dedicated long time enthusiasts for a wide range of speaker types and brands - Maggie fanatics, Quad fans, Klipsch, Lowther, Horns, British speakers, you name it. Would a similar poll on ASR show members owning their speakers even longer? I'm skeptical. But even if there were some difference, it's clear above plenty "subjective or non-ASR audiophiles" keep gear for many years.

The philosophy of ASR is to help people to avoid these mistakes. So here you are telling everyone the whole ASR thing is meaningless, buy what you like.

ASR provides accurate information about how gear measures, and the relevance of those measurements to how gear sounds. This can be tremendous help to an audiophile. It's why I extoll this site and Amir all the time on other forums. But if you think this translates to telling audiophiles What They Have To Purchase In Order To Be Mature And Rational...then you will be turning away all sorts of people who otherwise might have been receptive to a site like this.

ASR reviews and information can help an audiophile narrow down the type of speakers that are likely to sound good. He can even just buy on the measurements and save lots of time. But another audiophile can ALSO understand the rational for the measurements, yet through careful auditioning, owning speakers etc, come to conclusions as to what type of presentation he likes. It may or may not align perfectly with a speaker you or other ASR members would purchase. But that doesn't mean it's not the right choice for that audiophile. There's all sorts of ways to do one's due diligance for a purchase. Offer information; don't belittle others as simpletons if they don't buy what you think they ought to.

However, if you want to debate with me, this is what you will get.

It's ok. I can handle it.

 

[Ron Texas]

@MattHooper "In the above, you are not reaching "logical conclusions." Rather it seems slippery-slope hysteria and moralizing. You are pretty good at making stuff up. I'm the one advocating science based objectivity. You are the subjectivist who is playing with mumbo jumbo.

The Steve Hoffman poll is worthless as the participants self selected. Both sample size and quality are the basis for a valid poll and neither is present there.

Some audiophiles are mature and rational, others are not. I'm not telling you what to do, but I have no problem telling anyone that I think they are irrational, immature or worse things than either of those.

 

[Duke]

... I have no problem telling anyone that I think they are irrational, immature or worse things than either of those.

Ron, I really don't see how proclaiming your willingness to engage in hostile behavior helps get your point across.

 

[MattHooper]

@MattHooper "In the above, you are not reaching "logical conclusions." Rather it seems slippery-slope hysteria and moralizing. You are pretty good at making stuff up. I'm the one advocating science based objectivity. You are the subjectivist who is playing with mumbo jumbo.

Well, you can continue to say that. I'm more interested in whether you can actually justify your claims. Perhaps I'm missing something.

The Steve Hoffman poll is worthless as the participants self selected.

"Self selected"...how?

Both sample size and quality are the basis for a valid poll and neither is present there.

So...you were claiming to be the one basing your position on science based objectvity. But you claimed "They will like it, buy it, and get tired of it fast. I didn't make this up. It's been said many times here and even in subjectivist forums."

And now..conveniently..forums, even polls explicitly related to the very issue you cited...are worthless to establish any such claims. Do you see why I pointed out you actually don't have data to back up your claim that audiophiles buying on "what they like" leads to dissatisfaction? You are basing a lot of your position on a fact - saving people from this purported dissatisfaction in buying what the like - that has not been established from what I can see.

Some audiophiles are mature and rational, others are not.

Let me guess which category you put yourself in ;-)

I'm not telling you what to do, but I have no problem telling anyone that I think they are irrational, immature or worse things than either of those.

Well..uh...good for you, I guess?

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

Bring a bottle of hot sauce to a French restaurant and notice how everyone will be staring at you thinking what a lowbrow. Wear heavily tinted glasses at an art exhibition and the same will happen.

Are you really making a “what Will the neighbors think” argument? This might be the worst kind of appeal to authority flavor of logical fallacy there is.

Taken to its logical conclusion it can be used to justify any kind of deviant behavior which will not land one in prison.

“Deviant behavior?” For real? Would you have J walkers shot on sight?

The buy what you like thing is exactly why the so called hi-fi sound exists. It's colored but sounds good in a brief audition to someone who doesn't know squat.

Personal preferences are inarguable. You don’t need a degree in Hifi to decide what you like.

They will like it, buy it, and get tired of it fast. I didn't make this up. It's been said many times here and even in subjectivist forums.

So other people made it up and you took it at face value.

The philosophy of ASR is to help people to avoid these mistakes.

It is oh so pretentious and self righteous to assert that other people’s’ preferences are “mistakes.”

So here you are telling everyone the whole ASR thing is meaningless,

No. ASR is not a forum that mandates a vow of conformity

buy what you like. It's not an intelligent like.

Who are you to decide the intellectual merits of other peoples’ preferences?

It's a like that is not the product of careful shopping and listening.

You don’t know that.

So, I have to look down on anyone who goes down that road.

And I have to look down on anyone who looks down on anyone who goes down that road.

See how that works?

To me AN is in the same boat as Tekton.

And to those who own Audio Note systems you system may very well be thought of as garbage. Opinions abound

I can't stop anyone from making this mistake, but I can sure say my piece about it.

It’s “speak my peace” not “say my piece” but either way….it’s a mistake to assume preferences that differ from yours are mistakes. But I probably can’t save you from that mistake.

See what I did there?

You can say your piece, but don't forget this site is about audio science and not audio whatever you like.

What scientific research has found that personal preference is unscientific?

Expect push back. Sure, there are many flavors of ice cream. You can choose the rotten fish flavor if that's what you like and it doesn't make you vomit.

Actually you can’t. No one makes a rotten fish flavor. But there are many other flavors you can choose. Chocolate and vanilla are very popular but the are hundreds of others.

I’m curious though. Can you tell me what the one and only official scientifically acceptable flavor happens to be? I would hate to be a non conformist deviant and suffer the disapproval of French restaurant patrons by liking the wrong flavor of ice cream.

Maybe you like owning colored speakers and dumping them after a couple of years. Maybe you are rich, or maybe you will never be because of this behavior. You can do what you like. It will not cause the end of western civilization although there are many other processes which are working towards that goal.

I had no idea Audio Note was among other things, trying to bring down western civilization. They are ambitious if they are anything

However, if you want to debate with me, this is what you will get.

More absurd melodramatic responses preaching about the evils of non conformity and personal taste and the existential threat it poses to western civilization? I’ll grab my popcorn. This is going to be epic

 

[DanielT]

And coloured is not always just crappy like Audio Note, brands like Harbeth, Kiplish, Tannoy ao use a very specific way of colouring sound, so they have a

I like my vintage Tannoys but above normal listening volume they start to distort. In my apartment, from a purely practical point of view take into account the neighbors factor, there are no problems. On the other hand, on the country side, in the summer house where I can play as loud as I want without disturbing anyone, I would never have them.

Speaking of objective measurements and subjective experiences.For example, Amir's speaker measurements reveal how well speakers perform when they are pressed, but how does the person who read those test results experience it in practice? How much reasonably low distortion-free high SPL do you want? Of course, I have no idea. Hell, I hardly know that myself because it depends on so many different factors that determine it.

Should I buy the same car model with the bigger engine even though I will hardly ever need the extra horsepower? But on the other hand when I want to push the pedal to the metal, it's damn fun with the extra power.

Edit:
Speaking of objective measurements again. Nowadays, I would never buy a pair of speakers if I had seen some objective measurements on them. The exception is used speakers at a good price that I can test and know that I can then sell without losing money on the deal. Then I can test just because it's fun.

 

[Ron Texas]

@Justdafactsmaam going sentence by sentence like that shows you can't write a complete paragraph.

 

[Ron Texas]

Ron, I really don't see how proclaiming your willingness to engage in hostile behavior helps get your point across.

Same to you buddy.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

@Justdafactsmaam going sentence by sentence like that shows you can't write a complete paragraph.

Is that a science based opinion?

 

[Ron Texas]

Is that a science based opinion?

It's a reply to someone who doesn't have anything to say, but wants to make it look like he does.

 

[Mnyb]

Case is AN is to leftfield to be excused.

Other normal hifi has their quirks and probably some unscientific beliefs baked in to the design even the good stuff .
The field is a bit under researched. All brands makes assumptions and judgment calls sometimes on a wim .

It’s like defending homeopathy because you can take that if you like it or use real medicine . You choose ?

The problem is AN and similars dishonest marketing they tell their customer that by magic their stuff sounds better and more correct ?

I would not have problem if they just told everyone they make bespoke handmade expensive stuff with what they consider a fun and engaging sound .

But thats not how audio snake oil is marketed to unsuspecting clients.

Almost everyone here had probaly personally experienced the high end tail chasing this leads to.

Brands can make whatever they want and try to sell it .

But i cant excuse them for lying fooling and misleading everyone when doing so . Its the woo woo that is problematic.

 

[DSJR]

Am I the only one that has listened to a setup and immediately thought "Wow, this is good" only to realize days later that I've been turning on my music but not listening for very long when I did. And then a week or so after that I notice that I'd go entire days without turning it on at all. I've learned not to trust my initial reaction in a comparison.
Oddly, it has rarely happened the other direction, where the first listening results in not liking it and the long term changes to liking. And there have been plenty that I didn't like from the start and even after time I still didn't enjoy. I can only think of one that broke through that barrier.


Honestly, I'm curious what it is that I like about some of these. Most of my stuff is DIY so I can't look at measurements to see what it is that some have or don't have.

I don't know that I'm advocating for speakers like audio note, but I am happy they exist and I'm happy some people enjoy them. I'd love to get to listen to many of these products that are frowned on here.

I do understand that for many on here it rubs them wrong that the items even exist and for others it is the fact that people claim they 'hear more' with them. But when all is said and done it comes down to if listening to music with what you have brings you joy.

But in the grand scheme of all the music that is played back every day, these are such a small number and are exponentially better recreations than most people hear. I just can't get bent out of shape by amps that produce harmonics or speakers without perfect dispersion in a world where I get assaulted by music reproduction from people's cell phone speaker on full volume as they walk around work or a store, or the grocery store that cranks the beastie boys through their 30 year old speakers that were only designed to handle someone's voice saying "cleanup on isle 3" or car stereos with just all bass or all treble pumping out of them from blocks away. I will take a system with Audio Note speakers, a R2R DAC and a First Watt amp over any of those.

I do agree that some of the claims manufactures make are silly and some products are downright faulty. However, I also think there are a lot of really beautiful products that I would enjoy for years to come that may not measure well and I'm okay with that. I returned a fairly expensive amp because I found I liked my 60 year old tube amp better and even today I will sit at my workbench with nothing to do and listen to it. I've thrown away a 3255 and an icepower class D amp in that time. And don't tell anyone but I also binned an ACA.

The best way to judge one's rig is to go away for a few days - spend a few days away from using it and then judge the first few minutes of a 'new' session. When I had my beloved ATC 100A's (ASR group yawn), I'd relish every moment I had playing music from a variety of sources through them. They accepted vinyl, even cassette via top Nakamichi, but came into their own on wide dynamic range sources such as my Revox B77mk2 high speed and digital of course and for a few years I was *there* and felt no need to change, although I did measure up for the traditional 200A's after hearing them (silly eejit that I was ). Since I had to sel them (too big and heavy), I've NEVER felt that way about looking forward to a good music session and as my life has progressed, I've had less time to listen as well/

Domestic life despite retirement and herself not being interested in higher wuality music reproduction (she tells me the gear puts her off) have put paid to lengthy listening sessions now, so I have to make the best of the short spells I have and you know what, I can now take it or leave it at home, sharing on this site really being the last vestige of the involvelemt I once had in it all. I put the current rig on with no sense of excitement - it 'does the job' for me currently (there's a bit of a tale as to how I have the stuff I currently do as some was inherited, a bit of it was gifted/paid in lieu and the remainder being long term ownership).

When you get older and more financially tied to house/vehicle repairs/supporting one's children even when grown up and so on, the 'gear-hobby' part of music listening can dissipate. I'm finding this transition terrifying frankly and I'll freely admit I actually shed tears when the big ATC's had to go (they went to a good home and the owner loved them until he passed a few years back - no idea as to their fate as his wife has now also passed and the house in the country bulldozed and totally rebuilt).


P.S. Tell you something, it's taken me to my late 60's to finally *get* what B&O were doing in the 80's and 90's. Sliding glass doors and illumination to 'invite' you to play a disc or turn on the radio, turntables that play records and auto-return with one touch of a button, fully active slim speakers with active varying bass-eq that don't stand out on a room once their slim appearance is noted - for my wife, something she could possibly use without shying away and actually, a pretty good all round sound as well I now realise. I know this brand seems up its corporate backside now and charges exhorbitant prices accordingly, but for a few years, it wasn't too bad and a wonderful prospect on th eused market where I'd be looking.

 

[DanielT]

The best way to judge one's rig is to go away for a few days - spend a few days away from using it and then judge the first few minutes of a 'new' session. When I had my beloved ATC 100A's (ASR group yawn), I'd relish every moment I had playing music from a variety of sources through them. They accepted vinyl, even cassette via top Nakamichi, but came into their own on wide dynamic range sources such as my Revox B77mk2 high speed and digital of course and for a few years I was *there* and felt no need to change, although I did measure up for the traditional 200A's after hearing them (silly eejit that I was ). Since I had to sel them (too big and heavy), I've NEVER felt that way about looking forward to a good music session and as my life has progressed, I've had less time to listen as well/

Domestic life despite retirement and herself not being interested in higher wuality music reproduction (she tells me the gear puts her off) have put paid to lengthy listening sessions now, so I have to make the best of the short spells I have and you know what, I can now take it or leave it at home, sharing on this site really being the last vestige of the involvelemt I once had in it all. I put the current rig on with no sense of excitement - it 'does the job' for me currently (there's a bit of a tale as to how I have the stuff I currently do as some was inherited, a bit of it was gifted/paid in lieu and the remainder being long term ownership).

When you get older and more financially tied to house/vehicle repairs/supporting one's children even when grown up and so on, the 'gear-hobby' part of music listening can dissipate. I'm finding this transition terrifying frankly and I'll freely admit I actually shed tears when the big ATC's had to go (they went to a good home and the owner loved them until he passed a few years back - no idea as to their fate as his wife has now also passed and the house in the country bulldozed and totally rebuilt).


P.S. Tell you something, it's taken me to my late 60's to finally *get* what B&O were doing in the 80's and 90's. Sliding glass doors and illumination to 'invite' you to play a disc or turn on the radio, turntables that play records and auto-return with one touch of a button, fully active slim speakers with active varying bass-eq that don't stand out on a room once their slim appearance is noted - for my wife, something she could possibly use without shying away and actually, a pretty good all round sound as well I now realise. I know this brand seems up its corporate backside now and charges exhorbitant prices accordingly, but for a few years, it wasn't too bad and a wonderful prospect on th eused market where I'd be looking.

You seemed to have really enjoyed your ATCs. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't the case that:

Or better to have had and lost than never had in the first place.

 

[DSJR]

You seemed to have really enjoyed your ATCs. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't the case that:

Or better to have had and lost than never had in the first place.

I had a choice and what is now nearly a thirty year married partnership with a son was the choice I made. It's been damned hard over the years I admit and sometimes I deeply yearn to return to the days when it all seemed simpler (it wasn't - just different and more naive times), but the loneliness now I've lost friends I used to see regularly I couldn't deal with now.

 

[Richard Austen]

I see it rather like this:

• With most brands the customer buys a new device, brings it home and is satisfied with its performance for a very long time.
• With AN the customer comes back again and again because he is never satisfied with its sound.

The latter is certainly good for the dealer but I highly doubt that it's good for customers.

That's one way to look at it but there are two rather large Audio Note Threads on the Steve Hoffman forum that illustrate that what people want is to take a platform and make it better.

It's no different than buying a Toyota Corolla - you buy it because you can only afford $20,000 then you say - wow this thing has been great for the last 8 years - now I have a better job and more money - I'm going to look at a Camry or hell maybe a Lexus ES-350 - get the same bomb-proof reliability but more power, quieter ride - take all the good stuff and make it better.

Conversely, if you bought most any American piece of crap - and if it even survived the warranty - you're not exactly saying to yourself - oh yeah that was a total pile - let me rush out and buy the Malibu. I mean indeed, people caught on to how ****** Ford was on Sedans that they stopped making them - that's how awful they are - they still make the Mustang with all the numerous recalls but I guess people put up with that because of the name badge.

Virtually every audio company (including by the way all the professional loudspeaker and most all of the professional amplifier makers) have more than one model - they offer el cheapo models for the paeons and they sell ridiculously expensive models - You can buy an ATC for $2k or well over $50k. Does that mean that the $2k models are all total shit because the customers decides he wants "more" of that ATC sound?

 

[Purité Audio]

Yes but generally the more you pay the louder and deeper the loudspeakers, and manufacturers such as Genelec ensure that all their models whether large or small are properly engineered and thus sound pretty similar.
Keith

 

[Mnyb]

Yes but generally the more you pay the louder and deeper the loudspeakers, and manufacturers such as Genelec ensure that all their models whether large or small are properly engineered and thus sound pretty similar.
Keith

kef has a similar family resemblance it's kind of the same sounds but on different scales

 

[Purité Audio]

Yes, both measurement led manufacturers,
Keith