Audio Listening With Age Diminished Hearing

[beagleman]

A few days ago I went to my annual medical checkup where they tested my hearing. My physician was surprised that I still heard 20,000 kHz easily and even I am. But this is also a curse for me since having full range hearing can be more revealing of resonances and HF trash some gear or even music has. It helps that I am pretty young and always listen to music at moderate to low levels, so let's see how it goes with the age.

What type of test did you do exactly? And how old are you??

I have a friend that works in the hearing field, and tests ears regularly. What struck me about your comment, is my friend says he normally only tests up to maybe 8khz or so, but CAN do higher, as he has machines and the cans that can go far higher, but usually not necessary as almost all sound as far as voices and so on are not that high.

He commented, that unless you are a 15 year old girl, it is very doubtful you are hearing much above 17-18khz normally.
That the 20khz thing is only with very young people with no hearing damage, and adults almost never go much over 17khz or so.

 

[anmpr1]

What struck me about your comment, is my friend says he normally only tests up to maybe 8khz or so, but CAN do higher...

Every audiogram I've seen that demonstrates a hearing loss shows a downward sloping drop at whatever frequency. I've never seen one that shows a dip--normal range, then loss, then back to normal. I wonder if there is any ear pathology that would result in that sort of response?

 

[KeithPhantom]

What type of test did you do exactly? And how old are you??

I have a friend that works in the hearing field, and tests ears regularly. What struck me about your comment, is my friend says he normally only tests up to maybe 8khz or so, but CAN do higher, as he has machines and the cans that can go far higher, but usually not necessary as almost all sound as far as voices and so on are not that high.

He commented, that unless you are a 15 year old girl, it is very doubtful you are hearing much above 17-18khz normally.
That the 20khz thing is only with very young people with no hearing damage, and adults almost never go much over 17khz or so.

True, let me give you a bit more background on my claim. I've tested with a multitude of equipment, usually from digital equipment making sure at least I can keep a signal broadband (unaffected by factors such as low-pass filters or narrowband generation in the first place). I can detect the tones up to 20 kHz when isolated, and only my left ear can do it at normal listening leveled, but again, isolated. Usually, those frefrequencies get masked, and it isn't like I care as well. Also, the transducers I tried usually are -10 dBSPL down from the testing frequency, and it is a bit hard to hear those frequencies as well. I'm just 21, and for what I am quickly testing right now, it is harder to hear those frequencies and it isn't like I want to hear them any ways (have you head the spike around 17-19 kHz in Superunknown's Spoonman, it was and is sometimes annoying if I pay attention to it).

 

[beagleman]

True, let me give you a bit more background on my claim. I've tested with a multitude of equipment, usually from digital equipment making sure at least I can keep a signal broadband (unaffected by factors such as low-pass filters or narrowband generation in the first place). I can detect the tones up to 20 kHz when isolated, and only my left ear can do it at normal listening leveled, but again, isolated. Usually, those frefrequencies get masked, and it isn't like I care as well. Also, the transducers I tried usually are -10 dBSPL down from the testing frequency, and it is a bit hard to hear those frequencies as well. I'm just 21, and for what I am quickly testing right now, it is harder to hear those frequencies and it isn't like I want to hear them any ways (have you head the spike around 17-19 kHz in Superunknown's Spoonman, it was and is sometimes annoying if I pay attention to it).

Aha! Being 21 helps. Thanks for the clarifications. Didn't mean to come off like calling BS on your claim.

 

[KeithPhantom]

Aha! Being 21 helps. Thanks for the clarifications. Didn't mean to come off like calling BS on your claim.

I just want to be extra clear that it is diminishing and it isn't like I care too much about those specific frequencies, I care more about my overall hearing. I can just barely detect tones at 20 kHz, but I can hear with confidence at 19, but I expect that to go lower as years pass.

 

[egellings]

Got drafted into the army and placed into artillery, where I shot 8" howitzers and 175mm guns. Hearing is shot.

 

[davidc]

Strange how we have things in common with people. Reading this thread, I have tinnitus, I have hearing loss, I'm on the verge of getting one of those high-end hearing aids that one of you guys said was great for audio and music, I love F1 and somebody mentioned they work around F1 engines, and I also have obstructive sleep apnea. Lol

 

[davidc]

Yes, I consider myself quite fortunate that I have realized some relief. Is it unusual that I would find some relief ?

What I found was that it helps if you start with the best aids available. FWIW ... $5K CDN before medical plan assistance. Musically speaking, the aids I use link using BlueTooth to devices running an app that lets me assert that I am engaging in one of several different kinds of hearing activities. The EQ for the aids is adjusted according to my activity, music ramps up high frequencies. Others including noisey restaurants and other similar venues will tend to attenuate high frequencies and boost in the range of typical human voices. It will also attenuate in the region that would be background "NOISE" and this makes this environment much easier to tolerate, indeed even begin to enjoy. There are other abilities to this app that include monitoring the range of noise you have been exposed to. Android or IOS, I use both but find IOS a tad bit better.

When I got the aids listening to music sounded a bit strange but better in spite of that. I did ask about Tinnitus and the audiologist suggested that I use my aids for a while then we'll discuss Tinnitus issues. By the time a couple of months went by I found that with the aids in, Tinnitus was all but gone. As I grew used to hearing with aids, the Tinnitus receded and eventually became significantly diminished. At the same time, I began to realize that music was becoming more clearly defined, with sound stage being much more evident. I am hearing new sounds in music that I have heard many times before and this has me eagerly exploring my music library.

The aids I am using are the behind the ear with a wire to an in ear Ear Bud type setup. When linked with BT, I can stream to the aids playing music although they are not really designed for this. the limitation being pretty much no BASS. And they also link to my iPhone so that I can hear the phone through the aids. This is a BIG benefit in noisy conditions.

And like everything, there is a downside. For me I now react to noise more, pets, kitchen clanging, doorbells, etc. I have always had an aversion to this stuff but it is worse now as my hearing is more sensitive with aids, we do live in quite a noisy world. But all-n-all, I am quite fortunate because I still spend more of each day without my aids in than with indicating that my hearing is still adequate for general daily needs.

Audguy, can you tell me what brand and model hearing aid you purchased? I just got out of a consult with an audiologist in ENT and I may take the plunge. They tell me that it should increase my enjoyment of music, although they didn't know a whole lot about it, but it could also help my problems with understanding conversation and noisy environments. They told me that hearing aids have advanced a lot in the high-end models. One model that they mentioned was really good was Widex.

There is a audiologist up in LA who specializes in working with musicians and audio files... I may go there.

 

[anmpr1]

The audioXpress news aggregation site sometimes has blurbs about companies attempting to offer hi-fidelity hearing tech for folks with hearing specific hearing loss issues. As I understand it, there was some recent legislation (or a move) to deregulate the hearing aid industry. The idea being to lower the cost of entry. I know Bose company offers an over the counter hearing product, but I haven't followed it, or heard any reports about the quality, from users in the field.

I don't know the technical details and/or limitations, but I don't see why something like this 'earbud' technology couldn't be adapted to specific hearing loss.

Sennheiser New Momentum True Wireless 3 Earbuds Offer Sound Personalization and Adaptive ANC

The Sennheiser consumer division now operated by Sonova under license, seems to be in high gear mode and just announced another important update in its true wireless lineup. The Sennheiser Momentum family is now expanded with the Momentum True Wireless 3 earbuds, updated in sound quality and...

audioxpress.com

 

[dualazmak]

Very fortunately, I have considerably better hearing ability over the average ability of my age group; I periodically check my hearing ability using a free software audiometer with nice headphone.

I well know and understand, however, my hearing ability in 7 kHz to 20 kHz (or ca.15 kHz?) is now a little bit inferior to average of younger people; by younger people, I mean people of age 40 or less.

Consequently, in case I invite those younger people to my audio listening sessions, they highly possibly feel that my best tuned high Fq response over 7 kHz (for my ears and brain) would be a little bit too high-gain for their ears. This means it should be better that if I could have flexible Fq response adjustments in my audio system especially over 7 kHz (to 20 kHz) Fq zone.

I actually implemented such functionalities in my multichannel multi-driver multi-way multi-amplifier stereo system. You can find the latest system configuration of my audio system here in my project.
- Total system configuration and the best tuned Fq response; as of January 25, 2022: #508

As I shared in detail in my post here on the project thread;
- Overhaul maintenance of super-tweeter FOSTEX T925A and further signal fine tuning thereafter: #485

I use a dedicated "integrated" amplifier directly driving the metal horn super tweeters Fostex T925A, and the volume dial of that amplifier can flexibly control the relative volume gain in 6 kHz - 20 kHz which is well overlapped the sound of Beryllium tweeter.

Whenever I invite my guest(s), especially younger generation, to my audio listening session, I first let him (her) listen to excellent recording tracks of solo violin music, and ask him (her) to adjust, by using the IR remote controller for the specific amplifier, the super tweeter volume level (gain) for his (her) most comfortable position, as this diagram is indicating;

So far, this flexible high-Fq gain control has been working very nicely, and all of our guests were very much comfortable for this functionality.

Edit:
You may easily implement the same flexible high-Fq gain control even in single DAC single amplifier audio system, if you have DSP crossover EQ software in upstream PC (or Mac) and can feed all of the gain-adjusted crossovered channels into your single DAC, as I wrote in the very first post of my project thread "any topic or discussion on ""software crossover" for "single-DAC plus single amplifier"" will be very much welcome".

 

[anmpr1]

Whenever I invite my guest(s), especially younger generation, to my audio listening session, I first let him (her) listen to excellent recording tracks of solo violin music, and ask him (her) to adjust, by using the IR remote controller for the specific amplifier, the super tweeter volume level (gain) for his (her) most comfortable position, as this diagram is indicating;

So far, this flexible high-Fq gain control has been working very nicely, and all of our guests were very much comfortable for this functionality.

Do you find that younger listeners typically want to adjust the sound by lowering HF response? Or do they adapt to it, quickly. Or perceive it as 'added sparkle' in the mix, something beneficial?

Because hearing loss is usually gradual over the years, I've wondered about how we adapt, and whether we unconsciously compensate by raising F (or buying more 'imbalanced' loudspeakers), or whether we just get used to the lower HF absence.

 

[dualazmak]

Do you find that younger listeners typically want to adjust the sound by lowering HF response?

My General answer is "Yes, they do so!".

I do not like to "force" them to (painfully?) accept/adjust themselves to "my preferable best tuned Fq response shape", and at first I let them freely control the level (gain) of the super-tweeters for their comfort (confort?).

You may understand and agree that I do not like to allow them to touch on my DSP EKIO's parameter setting on the PC screen including the gain control for each of the crossovered channels, but I am rather happy to allow them to control the volume dials of the "integrated" amplifiers, as well as the remote volume control of the sub-woofers, which are very safe "on-the-fly", I mean control while we actually listening to the music.

In average, they control the level of super-tweeters about 2 dB to 8 dB below my preferable settings. As I have precisely measured diagram of the relation between the specific amplifier's volume dial position and the Fq response curve at our listening position (see my post here), I can easily identify the minus dB value of their preference compared to "my" best tuned one.

After our audio listening session for a while, about 2 hours or so, I even allow them also to control the volume dials of the amplifiers dedicatedly directly driving sub-woofers, woofers, midrange squawkers and Beryllium tweeters. The selection of excellent "integrated" amplifiers in my multi-amplifier system would be one of the really nice features for such a flexible tuning. (Please refer to my post here for the summary of my amplifier selections.)
- (Provisional) Decision on amplifiers selection and photos of the listening environments: #311

Usually my guests coming to our audio listening sessions are HiFi audio enthu people and/or really professional (or semi-professional) musicians in classical and early classical music. It is really interesting to "observe" how they control the relative gains for the SP drivers for their preferences.

Just as one example case, in autumn last year, I invited my serious jazz fanatic HiFi audio friend to my home for our enjoyable listening session which I shared in my post here.
- A serious jazz fanatic friend came to my home for audio sessions using my multichannel multi-driver multi-way multi-amplifier stereo system: #438

I wrote in that post that he was really impressed that he could quite easily fine tune the total sound so that it best fit for his taste of jazz listening; he said that he even could adjust the total sound really nicely simulating his own JBL SP system with mainly boosting (gain up), 3 dB to 8 dB, of the Be-midrange by Accuphase E-460 dedicatedly and directly driving it. Of course, he also fine adjusted the gains for other SP drivers;

In any way, after the guest(s) left my listening room (my home), of course I always carefully reset the relative gains into "my" best tuned configurations;

 

[anmpr1]

Usually my guests coming to our audio listening sessions are HiFi audio enthu people and/or really professional (or semi-professional) musicians in classical and early classical music. It is really interesting to "observe" how they control the relative gains for the SP drivers for their preferences. Just as one example case, in autumn last year...

I missed your earlier posts, so thanks for the reply and the link.

One thing I'm finding more and more is not the overall 'system' balance (or in-room FR of my 'nominal' EQ settings), but rather the vast differences among recordings, which highlight and often exacerbate what could be taken as 'problems' in the system, but are in fact related to choices the producer made in his final mix, and not due to the system, per se.

Example: my speakers are tuned by EQ for what I perceive to be a 'natural' balance. On 'good' recordings I can't distinguish the external powered sub from the main loudspeakers. But when I go from one recording to another, I invariably discover that it's not uncommon to hear the acoustic bass/kick drum (in small jazz combos) much too pronounced for my EQ setup. On another recording, the LF might be too minimal. Then, I want to adjust bass frequencies, which is a hassle to do with each recording, so I don't.

SPL or loudness levels from one recording to another are not nearly as annoying as mix variations. It is easy to lower the overall loudness level with one knob. Adjusting lows is not quite so easy, because you have to identify the frequency to adjust. I use an external 2/3 octave EQ, and I don't want to mess with the knobs since I've got it right on 'average'. Turning down highs is not an issue with me because at my age my HF hearing is gone. But I don't really notice it because it's been gradual.

For me, once you get your stereo 'tuned in' for your listening room, the real limiting factor is what is on the track you are listening to. That is the important thing.

As an aside, I remember when Mark Levinson came out with his Dick Burwen designed Audio Palette. This was in the early 1980s. Mark's reason as to why you wanted this thing was because it gave end users a customization needed in order to tailor each recording to their own system. The idea was that no recording was ever 'standardized' in a meaningful or 'absolute' way, and they all needed some kind of 'in the listening room' EQ--apart from an overall balance of the 'raw' system. The owner was supposed to write down the different settings for different recordings, etc.

At the time I just thought it was Mark, the salesman, going overboard. Now I think he was on to something. I'm just not that compulsive, and certainly wouldn't participate in that level of fine and on-going adjustments, just to listen to a record.

 

[dualazmak]

One thing I'm finding more and more is not the overall 'system' balance (or in-room FR of my 'nominal' EQ settings), but rather the vast differences among recordings, which highlight and often exacerbate what could be taken as 'problems' in the system, but are in fact related to choices the producer made in his final mix, and not due to the system, per se.

Although we are a little bit going out of the scope of this thread, I fully agree with you. Our home audio system can do little for compensating that issue; it is the matter of recording engineers and the producers. I also have so many really "bad" quality music tracks in this respect.

Just for your reference, you would please find my audio sampler playlist (with excellent recording quality) here in my project thread.

Let me also share with you about the importance of "precision time alignment between the SP units".

Even though people in this forum ( in this thread) and in other audio web sites have tendency of putting much attention on Fq responses, I confirmed and leaned that 0.1 msec precision time alignment would be really critically important for much improved total sound quality, including amazing disappearance of SPs, tightness cleanliness of the sound, and superior 3D sound stage, as I recently wrote in my post here.

 

[Old Listener]

Hello. I have been aware of the fact that my hearing was slowly degrading for many years now. And some close listening buddies it seems, also suffer hearing loss to some degree. Perhaps this is a more common problem that it may seem, maybe even so drastic that age related hearing impairment probably occurs with most humans.

So I bit the bullet and went to a hearing specialist for some testing, and the inevitable fitment of hearing aids. The hearing tests are not what I underwent many years ago when younger and today computers and software replace the test gear of old. The tests involved hearing and repeating a series of spoken words that diminish in gain as the sequence continues. Ultimately, a curve is produced for each ear that clearly shows the hearing abilities of each ear at particular frequency ranges. My left ear was worse than my right ear ... probably caused by too much driving with the window open. My car windows are almost never open now.



Discussions with other audio minded acquaintances now suggests that they also would benefit from investing in some hearing aids. At the cost of a nice amplifier, roughly, or less if extended medical plan benefits are available it now seems to me to be perhaps the best investment I could make for the enjoyment of listening to music.

VERY MUCH RECOMMEND GETTING HEARING TESTS AND PURCHASING QUALITY HEARING AIDS !!!

@AudGuy, thank you for taking the time to post such a long and informative message.

I'm at the point of needing to get hearing aids. I'd appreciate learning what kind of hearing aids you got. Knowing the make, model and price would be useful as would the features of the hearing aids.

 

[jae]

Every audiogram I've seen that demonstrates a hearing loss shows a downward sloping drop at whatever frequency. I've never seen one that shows a dip--normal range, then loss, then back to normal. I wonder if there is any ear pathology that would result in that sort of response?

Yes there is, and it is more common than you would assume (albeit of course rarer than typical hearing loss due to age). It is called a cookie-bite or notch hearing loss. While it can be caused due to noise, it is usually attributed to congenital, auto-immune, or vascular problems. It is very debilitating, especially if it is in the lower or midrange.

Audiologists only typically go to 8khz because hearing aids/audiometric tests are optimised for spoken language, music enjoyment and linearity throughout the spectrum is not normally a concern on audiologists.

Hearing loss is also highly correlated with sleep apnea and snoring.

 

[Deleted member 46664]

I'm about to hit 70. Recently I had a hearing exam and my right ear doesn't hear as well as it used to - not even close. But my left ear functions very well per the doctor. After a brief Q&A, he said the issues in my right ear are likely due to age, but it's possible the right ear was damaged at some point years ago that I was not aware of.

Curious if any others who enjoy audio have experienced the hearing issues that come with aging, and how they have dealt with it.

I'm 71. I've been very lucky about my hearing. My last test confirmed that aside from "masking" by low level tinnitus I still hear from about 33hz all the way to 14,000 which the audiologist described as "Typical teenage ears".

His opinion was that kids are damaging their hearing at an alarming rate with earbuds and highly compressed music. I don't know if I agree but it certainly does seem possible.

Over the past 5 years or so my hearing has gone from 17,000 down to 14,000. But music etc. still sounds ever bit as good as always. We do tend to compensate and adjust, which is a good thing.

 

[MrKlinky]

Hi All, Newbie here.

It is well-known that a rapidly rising transient attack to a sound is produced by energy in the upper end of the spectrum (as demonstrated by Fourier). If we apply a low pass filter of gradually reducing cutoff frequency then at some point we will notice a lack of 'sparkle' in the sound, in a similar manner to hearing loss. My point is that we will also be measurably 'blunting' the rise time of transient events - say the drumstick contacting the skin - but does the effect of no longer being able to hear high frequencies affect how we perceive transients in a similar manner? In a nutshell then, are we sensitive to sound event rise times, and does sensorineural hearing loss affect how we hear it?

 

[MRC01]

When it comes to high frequencies, perception of tone and transient response are 2 different things, at least subjectively. Whether they are 2 different things objectively too, I am not sure. The ear is a non-linear device, so maybe?

Keep in mind that we won't hear harmonics at any frequency above half the highest frequency we can perceive. Like if your threshold is 15 kHz then the 1st harmonic of an 8 KHz tone is 16 kHz which is inaudible. This makes perception in the top octave of our hearing rather "different".

Some research suggests our perception of tone/pitch & timing are different and non-linear: https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html
That said, I've heard this research was incorrect or non-reproducible... but I don't have a link.

Personally speaking, when I ABX test high frequencies near my personal thresholds of perception, I can detect the presence of a low pass filter at higher frequencies than I can hear outright as pure tones. Put differently, if we apply low pass filters starting supersonic and gradually working them downward into the audible spectrum, in ABX testing I can hear the difference in transients/timing before I can hear them as tone/pitch.

 

[DVDdoug]

but does the effect of no longer being able to hear high frequencies affect how we perceive transients in a similar manner? In a nutshell then, are we sensitive to sound event rise times, and does sensorineural hearing loss affect how we hear it?

There is a relationship between pulse response and frequency response but you're really just hearing a loss of high frequencies.

If you have a 100Hz "transient" with no high-frequency components/harmonics, it can't happen any faster than 100Hz (1/100th of a second for a full wave). But a lot of sounds, especially musical instruments, have a "sharp attack" with lot of high-frequencies in then that trails-off as the resonance kicks-in. You can see that on a spectrogram. I once saw a video of a guitar of a playing while attached to an oscilloscope. The waveform starts out "nasty" and complex and then becomes a nice sine wave (at least it looked like a sine wave).