Audio by Van Alstine ABX Comparator Review

[amirm]

But as you well know from the "Do measurements mean everything or nothing?" megathread, a substantial portion of subjectivists don't think that distortion measures the differences they hear.

Then they shouldn't attempt to cross religions and use our methods of controlled testing. Their idea was to prove their point using our means as to it being credible. In that sense, we do get to show evidence that could cause corrupt results.

 

[pma]

But as you well know from the "Do measurements mean everything or nothing?" megathread, a substantial portion of subjectivists don't think that distortion measures the differences they hear

This is not the point. The point is that the test equipment (AB box in this case) cannot be 100x worse than the object tested. It should be 5 - 10x better.

 

[whazzup]

It was merely a request to post this and remove all doubt to readers incl. those in the other forum.
Seemed so trivial and easy to do.

Camera on the device. mic on top of it and operate. This could have saved Amir from doing all the measurements if the relay click sound was not as advertised and is an easy tell.

Ah well... it was just a suggestion to remove all doubt.

Have built plenty of stuff with relays and can easily hear if one is energized or falls off.
I was under the impression that the trick of the ABX box was that always 2 relays do the switching where one is energized and a second one falls off. Always the same sound.
I also was under the impression that there was another relay that muted the signal during the switching to even mask the timing difference (energize is usually faster than falling off).

Yes, we're on a forum about hearing things. Would have been cool, probably anti climatic but still cool to be able to hear THE Comparator that sparked the Thousand Page War. Even if it's just the relays.

 

[Mort]

I agree with @pjug that it isn’t about trust. I trust Amir, just as the A/S people trust Josh. But if we’re the side that represents science and rationality than we have to do better than “trust me bro.”

For the most part both sides agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. But we have markedly different ideas of what claims are extraordinary. When Josh presented his findings we demanded a bunch more information. Recordings, access to the equipment chain, etc. Now that the shoe’s on the other foot we should at least be able to provide a recording of the relay switch sounds.

Meh seems trivial to me, I don't agree.

 

[amirm]

I was under the impression that the trick of the ABX box was that always 2 relays do the switching where one is energized and a second one falls off.

I have the top off: it has the same number of relays as posted:

In my casual look, it doesn't look like anything is duplicated. Someone less lazy than me should count.

 

[shuppatsu]

I think the AS owner should catch some of the heat for all this too, not just Josh. When people were trying to get Josh to provide more to help get at what Josh was hearing, Chris was lashing out against them and chalking it up to imagined agendas. I think Chris was much worse in all this than Josh was.

I like Josh, especially for his yeoman's work on the TBVO series. Chris is pretty much irredeemable. Motivated reasoning combined with an amazingly smug and smarmy delivery. It's pretty hard for me to deal with it.

To his credit though, he'll take it as well as dish it out. In an unrelated thread at A/S (the dCS reviewer threat situation), he was lashing out at keyboard warriors and I got pretty sarcastic back to him, and he let it all slide off his back.

Also, his "play iPhone on chest with head propped up" technique is amazing. 10/10 recommend.

 

[popej]

@amirm replicating a 16/16 test with the box surely would be the final nail in the coffin.

Would be good to confirm, that relays can be heard.

 

[NTTY]

This is not the point. The point is that the test equipment (AB box in this case) cannot be 100x worse than the object tested. It should be 5 - 10x better.

Maybe one can differentiate a fly fart from a mosquito fart whilst standing behind a 747 just before taking off

 

[NTTY]

Would be good to confirm, that relays can be heard.

Why?

 

[shuppatsu]

This is not the point. The point is that the test equipment (AB box in this case) cannot be 100x worse than the object tested. It should be 5 - 10x better.

It may be 100x worse when it comes to measuring distortion, but if you don't think distortion has any bearing on the issue, it's irrelevant.

Of course I think distortion has bearing on the issue, but I'm not a person who needed persuading.

 

[Mort]

I really have no doubt if the relay sounds were posted, there would magically be one more hurdle to clear for the doubters.

 

[pablolie]

I could not care less about the motivations of any individual on the internet.
I just feel somewhat sorry for people who openly advertise their incompetence at something that seems important to them, which imo should always drive people to learn before they talk.

 

[popej]

Why?

Just to maintain standard. Not that I doubt, but confirmation by wife is kind of funny at the forum.

 

[pma]

It may be 100x worse when it comes to measuring distortion, but if you don't think distortion has any bearing on the issue, it's irrelevant.

And would you say the same about frequency response that depends on volume control setting?
And we do not know how it behaves with change of load impedance and source impedance.

 

[NTTY]

Just to maintain standard. Not that I doubt, but confirmation by wife is kind of funny at the forum.

Meaning you don’t trust what @amirm reported. Confirmation by wife was sarcasm and perfectly valid in the context.

Then, how do you suggest to get that confirmed? Obviously not from Amir. And that extends to anything else he posted here…

 

[Spkrdctr]

I have had quite enough personal experience with self-appointed “Golden Ears”. Some of them did not realize when I disconnected the tweeter of a 3-way speaker, some of them did not notice phase inversion in one of the stereo channels.

That is very common. Most people can't hear pretty much anything unless it is a huge difference. They think they can but in reality, they can't. The brain fills in so much concerning audio that it is hard to out think the brain/ear interpretation of sound. At the same time you can sometimes tell something that is incredibly faint and resolve tiny sounds. The human system is amazing!

 

[welwynnick]

Why hasn't anybody made a device like this that actually measures well? How hard can it be these days?
It could once and for all silence the 'I can't explain but I hear a difference' crowd

Wake up, they already are:

Reference ABX hardware design and implementation

Update 2026-09-11: boards ordered! https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/reference-abx-hardware-design-and-implementation.72589/post-2679015 Edit 2026-07-31, see progress update at...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[popej]

Then, how do you suggest to get that confirmed?

Run an ABX without any device attached. Should take like 5 minutes.

 

[markk]

This whole adventure goes to show how difficult it is to generate truly blind studies. The study experiment has to be blind to even the slightest auditory and visual clues. As a parallel, look at the blinded testing that Drs. O'Toole and Olive engaged in just to develop their models of loudspeaker parameter preferences.

I'm not sure it's worth it for Amir or any other forum member to pursue this. Not being negative, just saying you could buy a fully decked out Klippel system for the money it would take to set up a truly rigorous blinded experimental study. And even then, it would have to be independently verified by some other group.

And for what? At some point, someone who is pro golden ears has to have some sort of biologic hypothesis underpinning what unmeasurable characteristic would be responsible for that golden ear's success. And then they have to put that hypothesis to the test in a fashion that holds up to scrutiny. This case does not.

If two DAC's measure equally flat and below the resolution of the human ear to distinguish, and with a noise floor and dynamic range exceeding the human ear, then what mythical dark matter quantity is responsible for the difference?

And that difference has to be passed through relatively preserved through either a headphone or loudspeaker transducer, which generally has more linear and nonlinear distortion and less dynamic range than a typical high end DAC.

Again, seems the null hypothesis is still holding up, believers notwithstanding. And all in all, I'd just rather see more testing of other devices. (of course I too, have ulterior motives for moving things along

 

[NTTY]

Run an ABX without any device attached. Should take like 5 minutes.

Isn’t it what @amirm reported?