Audio by Van Alstine ABX Comparator Review

[amirm]

No but I feel as if this review is different and has additional scrutiny and importance.
Also, given that you brought up the topic of recording I’m not sure why I’m being chastised for asking an impertinent question?

I am in the business of testing music reproduction, not production. The latter have microphones, interfaces, ready to go to record things. I don't as neither my hobby (listening to music) nor reviewing requires these things. I have a measurement mic that I may have loaned to my son. I have no experience with recording live sounds. So the notion that "of all people" I should have ready setup to record something did not fit.

Regardless, it should be assumed that relays have differing sounds unless demonstrated otherwise. I am waiting to hear what mechanism would make them sound the same and then, I would proceed to prove my observation. I even quoted another blind test by Audio Luminaries observing the same about their switchers.

 

[shuppatsu]

So were you expecting Amir to go out and spend $1k-$2k on a mic just for this test?

The level of entitlement in this world is out of control.

It’s one microphone, Michael. How much could it cost? $2,000?

 

[PristineSound]

It’s one microphone, Michael. How much could it cost? $2,000?

Yeah, you're right, $2,000 ain't that bad, why don't you donate one to ASR?

 

[DonH56]

It’s one microphone, Michael. How much could it cost? $2,000?

An Earthworks M30 like I have lists for about $1200 USD and can be had for well under $1000. But that is only the beginning: then you need an adequate mic preamp and recording system, all the stands and cables and such, and desire and willingness to set up a measurement-grade recording system. My last system was around $10k in mics and components plus another couple of grand for the software package to help perform measurements and analysis. Today I use a $120 calibrated UMIK-1 microphone and REW for audio analysis, and a cheap Zoom field recorder for personal recordings. To expect Amir, or anyone, who is testing components or simply listening to audio systems to own and routinely use a recording system is nuts IMO. There are folk who play (perform) music, record music, and listen to music, but it is rare those are the same person. Since we all seem to like misguided car analogies, would you expect a mechanic to be a race car driver?

I understand why someone might ask Amir if he could record the relay clicks, but also understand why he would not own the equipment to do so. It is also true that anyone who has been around relays understands what they sound like, and how they differ in sound closing and opening, but chances are the majority of ASR folk have not been around relays (or not very much). I thought it was a good question, Amir answered not unexpectedly, and it should have been dropped there IMO. If he had a cheap field recorder or USB mic and Audacity or whatever it would be an easy thing, but if he's not interested in recording stuff (why would he?) that's the end of it for me.

Too bad we can't make mountains of gold from molehills of lead.

 

[PristineSound]

An Earthworks M30 like I have lists for about $1200 USD and can be had for well under $1000. But that is only the beginning: then you need an adequate mic preamp and recording system, all the stands and cables and such, and desire and willingness to set up a measurement-grade recording system. My last system was around $10k in mics and components plus another couple of grand for the software package to help perform measurements and analysis. Today I use a $120 calibrated UMIK-1 microphone and REW for audio analysis, and a cheap Zoom field recorder for personal recordings. To expect Amir, or anyone, who is testing components or simply listening to audio systems to own and routinely use a recording system is nuts IMO. There are folk who play (perform) music, record music, and listen to music, but it is rare those are the same person. Since we all seem to like misguided car analogies, would you expect a mechanic to be a race car driver?

I understand why someone might ask Amir if he could record the relay clicks, but also understand why he would not own the equipment to do so. It is also true that anyone who has been around relays understands what they sound like, and how they differ in sound closing and opening, but chances are the majority of ASR folk have not been around relays (or not very much). I thought it was a good question, Amir answered not unexpectedly, and it should have been dropped there IMO. If he had a cheap field recorder or USB mic and Audacity or whatever it would be an easy thing, but if he's not interested in recording stuff (why would he?) that's the end of it for me.

Too bad we can't make mountains of gold from molehills of lead.

I don't know why you even wrote out this long explanation. Delusional entitlement don't deserve an explanation.

 

[Chrispy]

I don't know why you even wrote out this long explanation. Delusional entitlement don't deserve an explanation.

Come on, you've made some dubious explanations yourself....

 

[b73i57dc3f]

So were you expecting Amir to go out and spend $1k-$2k on a mic just for this test?

Um, why do you think such an expensive mic would be needed? He says the difference is rather obvious, so you probably don't need much of a mic to demonstrate it. The recording doesn't have to be super high quality, as long as some of the difference carries through, that's enough. Whatever mic he's using for Youtube is probably up to the task. Even the phone mic might suffice, it not capturing the full spectrum doesn't necessarily mean the difference would be entirely lost in the recording.

 

[Chrispy]

Um, why do you think such an expensive mic would be needed? He says the difference is rather obvious, so you probably don't need much of a mic to demonstrate it. The recording doesn't have to be super high quality, as long as some of the difference carries through, that's enough. Whatever mic he's using for Youtube is probably up to the task. Even the phone mic might suffice, it not capturing the full spectrum doesn't necessarily mean the difference would be entirely lost in the recording.

Not just expensive but rather capability.

 

[PristineSound]

Um, why do you think such an expensive mic would be needed? He says the difference is rather obvious, so you probably don't need much of a mic to demonstrate it. The recording doesn't have to be super high quality, as long as some of the difference carries through, that's enough. Whatever mic he's using for Youtube is probably up to the task. Even the phone mic might suffice, it not capturing the full spectrum doesn't necessarily mean the difference would be entirely lost in the recording.

Did you not read the review? He specifically said the mic on his phone couldn't capture it.

 

[b73i57dc3f]

He specifically said the mic on his phone couldn't capture it.

He specifically said:

I tried recording the sound using my phone but the mic is not good enough to record the full spectrum.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into the wording, though.

 

[shuppatsu]

Yeah, you're right, $2,000 ain't that bad, why don't you donate one to ASR?

No, Apologies for my ethnocentrism, that was an Arrested Development reference. I don’t imagine an adequate USB mic would cost more than $30.

 

[PristineSound]

He specifically said:

Perhaps I'm reading too much into the wording, though.

No, Apologies for my ethnocentrism, that was an Arrested Development reference. I don’t imagine an adequate USB mic would cost more than $30.

It doesn't matter if buying a mic is $2,000 or $20, the man said he wasn't able to capture it with what he has and that is the end of it. No one here is in any position to casually tell Amir to go buy a mic, he does this as a hobby, this is a non-for-profit site, he does not make a penny, yet the work he does benefits everyone for free.

To even suggest him to buy stuff, especially in such an entitled manner, regardless of how inexpensive something may be, you have some serious entitlement issues.

However, if you said, "can I loan my mic to you" or "can I make a donation for you to buy a mic, such that you can reuse in the future for the benefit of ASR" is more appropriate. Assuming Amir is willing to invest more time.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

So were you expecting Amir to go out and spend $1k-$2k on a mic just for this test?

The level of entitlement in this world is out of control.

 

[Billy Budapest]

Wow, this is bad.

I have a Manley Skipjack that can be used as an ABX comparator. Would you want to test that?

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Haven't noticed anything unique about this one myself. OTOH additional scrutiny/importance is something that should be associated with test gear. How did Alstine amps measure?

The uniqueness of this one is that there are multiple page threads here and on Audiophilestyle about the extraordinary results that were obtained with this switching box. Amir and others went to extraordinary lengths and expense to obtain the box and test it (and I am very grateful that they did - certainly above and beyond).
The conclusion seems to be that there’s a “tell” in the sound of the switch.

All I’m asking (and I honestly don’t think I’m being rude about it so please be kind in your responses) is: for completeness, shouldn’t the “tell” be measured lest someone dismiss it as anecdotal evidence.

Also, I’m not sure why it’s surprising to expect Amir to have a suitable mic (even a $100 umic would probably do wouldn’t it?) or why it’s surprising that anyone would ask the question.
In case something is lost in translation from Australian English, when I say I “expect” he has a mic I don’t mean I “expect” him to to go out and buy a $2,000 device. I mean something like “hey cobber, if you just happen to have a suitable mic lying around amongst all yer measurin’ kit it’d be grouse if you could record the click for us. I’ll shout you a Fosters if you do. If not, no wukkers”

 

[tmtomh]

I understand how you feel - some folks here are a little over the top with their accusations of your alleged entitlement, which I don't think is what's going on here.

I do think we can cut down the acrimony and respectfully say that Amir certainly could acquire a high quality mic and the associated equipment - and at the same time I think we have to take seriously his point that he doesn't have this gear and its proper use is not part of his professional expertise. So it's not necessarily a simple or easy matter for him to do it, and in my opinion this goes beyond the kind of thing that we should just presume he should do as part of his reviews.

Perhaps someone else could do it, if the logistics can be arranged to get the ABX unit to that person (and if @amirm and the other person were interested and willing to arrange it of course).

 

[pma]

Josh responded on AS saying he could not hear the mechanical sound of the relays with the IEM in his ears. But he did hear electrical artifacts during switching, statiac or click sound. I don't see how that is less problematic; seems equally suspect as a tell.

It is a big problem and difficult to avoid with any kind of abx switch, especially in case that the DUT has a DC voltage (even if very small level) at its output. Without fade-out and fade-in almost impossible to get rid of.

 

[pma]

But we already know that he did just that. He took PMA's DAC recording tests #1 (ADC vs original) and #4 (DacMagic vs Topping D10s)and scored 8/10 and 9/10 respectively.
I think those ADC/DAC results, and a few others (PMA's in particular), are much more useful and compelling than the AVA ABX tests.

Thank you, but as I have explained many times, I do not consider a single, not repeated 8/10 result as any proof and I have also shown how easily it could have been achieved by chance. Why not 16/16 that he easily got repeatedly with his AVA tests??

And do not forget that for the 9/10 result there was a good and well documented technical reason - precisely shown filter ripple in the audio band. DATA.

 

[firedog]

The clicks in the box would be audible when listening to the box only but with headphones and/or speakers at 'active listening levels' the soft clicking of relays in a closed box would not be audible as it would be way too low in level compared to the music playing at the same time.

This. The review is misleading.
Josh said he listened to the clicks while music was playing and couldn't hear a difference.
Amir says the distortion added by the box is equal for both units.
The box may be unsuitable for testing DACs, but the comments about Josh as a liar and an unsuitable listener are not correct conclusions.
He also passed the additional AB test that was demanded here.

 

[mcdn]

It is a big problem and difficult to avoid with any kind of abx switch, especially in case that the DUT has a DC voltage (even if very small level) at its output. Without fade-out and fade-in almost impossible to get rid of.

100% this. Here's the high level list of cues and mitigations I'm using for the design in the reference ABX thread

Unintended cues in an ABX test

What the listener notices	Possible cause	Design mitigation
A repeatable pop whose level, polarity or stereo position identifies the source	Different DC offsets in the complete A and B signal paths	Fade-out before switching, followed by fade-in once the new signal path has settled.
One source is consistently louder	Level mismatch or gain drift	Level-matched outputs, with fixed per-source and per-channel gain settings during the test.
Different silence duration or time for the sound to return	Source-dependent switching, settling or control timing	One fixed-duration transition for every selection, including requests that leave the same source playing.
The click or brief ringing sounds different	Different source impedances, filter responses or circuit conditions during switching	Source and gain changes occur at deep attenuation, with a fixed settling interval before fade-in.
A switching click appears at a different stereo location	Unequal left/right offsets, switching times or settling	Left and right switch together within the same fade-out/fade-in sequence.
Faint sound during the transition identifies the source	Switch leakage, capacitive feedthrough, crosstalk or shared-return paths	Deep attenuation during switching, with both signal and return disconnected from the unselected source.
The test setup adds different hiss, hum or interference to A and B	Unequal signal or ground paths, digital activity or channel leakage	A common post-selection signal path, isolated unselected-source returns and quiet control electronics during listening.
The test setup creates a tonal or spatial difference	Unequal bandwidth, capacitance, phase response or channel balance	Equivalent A and B input networks feeding the same listening electronics, with per-channel level matching.
X follows a predictable sequence	Biased randomisation, predictable repetition rules or exposed trial state	Unbiased, unpredictable X assignments, with source identities concealed until the test is complete.
Lights, displays or controls reveal the selection	Identity-dependent indicators or control activity	Consistent display and control behaviour independent of X's identity, with internal selection information hidden.
Relay clicks or vibration identify the selected path	Different relay activity or timing	Relay switching sequence that is the same open/closed sequence on every request, with randomisation where this is not possible.