Audio Blind Testing - You Are Doing It Wrong! (Video)

[amirm]

I not only watched it, I responded in great detail how we can accept that as taken for granted and jump to the next level. The video was 1000% facts, test on Monday, let's graduate to grade 2 now.

Then why did you talk about graphs?

 

[Lexxie]

I'm sensing with my psychic feelers, people who are pissy about snake oils wanting some kind of science and objective measures to back up their expensive purchases. Which I do not disagree with! I'm a supporter of methods which get an A+ in science and an A+ at finding a way for science to measure subjective musicality (which we know science is better at objective phenomena than subjective, hence we need to get transcendental to get best of both worlds!)

That's all fine. Your video on A/B I couldn't agree more with it. So much so I want everyone to just accept it as true and we graduate to next level of discussion, which I proposed is this issue about what A/B doesn't capture in the psychologic realm that we can creatively figure out.

 

[Triliza]

Graphs don't make you feel jiggly jangly over preternatural musicality. Or maybe you get an orgasm over seeing a dead-flat graph, who am I to say? LOL

I'm just hear to share another perspective on chasing the dragon of how to find best experience. I respect measurements and graphs as showing facts and things that really are. I only ask that you not confuse them as a 100% verisimilitude for the actual experience of musicality!

"So where is the science, citation please?" OK, I think psychology 102 or 203 on sensory processing and conscious awareness of stimuli. I would hate to see this convo degrade into bickering about basics all over again. I had put out everything about two partisan incompatible views of objective vs subjective and proposed creative ways to transcend it, because such bickering appears to go on for decades with new faces, and no one transcending.

Science/Facts! NO! Feeling/subjective pleasure! NO! YES! NO! YES! NO! Moommmmmy, Johnny hurt my feelings and don't understand me! Mommmy! Really, we can do better.

If you pick audio equipment over a human can hear stimuli differences then LORD HELP YOU. I pick it from pleasure. And if I can't hear what I'm about to buy, scientific measurements are a part of helping me guess. But if I can hear it, then I give a F, I go with what sounds better. I'm assuming you don't enjoy music only based on knowing/bragging u have a lower noise floor. But if I assume it only makes an ...

You know, it took of a lot science, graphs, data and all that to make all that gears that stimulate your sensors and conciousnes. If you don't want to bother with that part, or don't know what to do with it, that's fine.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I'm sensing with my psychic feelers, people who are pissy about snake oils wanting some kind of science and objective measures to back up their expensive purchases. Which I do not disagree with! I'm a supporter of methods which get an A+ in science and an A+ at finding a way for science to measure subjective musicality (which we know science is better at objective phenomena than subjective, hence we need to get transcendental to get best of both worlds!)

That's all fine. Your video on A/B I couldn't agree more with it. So much so I want everyone to just accept it as true and we graduate to next level of discussion, which I proposed is this issue about what A/B doesn't capture in the psychologic realm that we can creatively figure out.

You are wasting the experts time and energy here trying to educate you when you don’t show any willingness to be educated / learn. All this is in books and papers and proven.

I rather have eg @voodooless or @amirm help people who actually seeking genuine help and value their expertise.

Just some food for thought.

 

[Lexxie]

I'm curious why you say that and don't act like you want to learn? MY EGO CAN TEACH YOURS! --No, mommy, he doesn't know my ego is smarter!

Really?!

Assuming we take the original subject of A/B testing of this thread as the topic, I propose:
1. amirm nailed a holy grail video, let's not argue about it anymore, please, amirm presumably posted the video so we would learn it and graduate. Class is over on that, did you get an A on the final?

So now then, I feel like I'm getting invalidated on internet by people who didn't read what I somewhat-too-verbosely said. OK, fine, my bad.
1. If you agree that amirm video nailed it, how do YOU propose to transcend current level of audio science vis-à-vis the big elephant in the room that we can't QUITE measure joy of sound quality from scientific method's current status quo in audiophiliac m.o. ?

 

[Roland]

There is an analogy to these tedious attacks (they can’t be called discussions) in the motorcycle world over the choice of engine oil. I just buy the cheapest oil that meets the required spec, others buy expensive branded oil with “race pedigree” or expensive packaging, or doubtful fuel economy claims. This forum is populated by people who advocate buying the cheapest oil to spec. Anyone who buys Mobil 1 is an idiot to them. However, in motorcycling we don’t arrogantly bully, denigrate and insult those who spend lots on oil.

 

[voodooless]

1. If you agree that amirm video nailed it, how do YOU propose to transcend current level of audio science vis-à-vis the big elephant in the room that we can't QUITE measure joy of sound quality from scientific method's current status quo in audiophiliac m.o. ?

I don't see it as a problem. These tests are not meant to measure joy.

Toole has done many blind tests on speakers to map out listener preferences and map those to certain measurable properties. It works because speakers sound very different, and people's preferences generally tend to align fairly well.

You can't really do the same for amps or DACs. In controlled tests, very rarely differences can be found. There really is no point in asking about preference.

The marketing departments already studied how to make people feel good about products and they've known how the system works for many decades. Here at ASR, we're not very interested in that.

This forum is populated by people who advocate buying the cheapest oil to spec. Anyone who buys Mobil 1 is an idiot to them.

No, you're an idiot if you start arguing that it's better without any substance and evidence, or worse, come with pseudoscientific nonsense. You'll get called out for it and asked for a convincing argument... yet those rarely come.

However, in motorcycling we don’t arrogantly bully, denigrate and insult those who spend lots on oil.

Well, clearly you've never been to motercyclingsciencereview.com...

 

[Lexxie]

Voodooless said:
These tests are not meant to measure joy.

OK we just come from different worlds. You can presume from now on everything I say is scandalously joycentric and looking for that kind of answer. No need to answer even, if not joycentric, it might get in the way and make textual clutter which prevents someone else who has the answer I seek. Capito ?

Voodooless said:
No, you're an idiot if you start arguing that it's better without any substance and evidence, or worse, come with pseudoscientific nonsense. You'll get called out for it and asked for a convincing argument... yet those rarely come.

I am a minority of one here but, I can make a minority-of-one rule. I'm here for joycentric advice from aesthetes. You know who you are, we talk about frissons in trumpets and compare adjectives in guarneri vs stradivarius. Or whatever, it's just an exaggerated metaphor to help you understand what a minority of people are after. I sometimes think people who can't detect the E-string is 2-cents flat, overcompensate with science as an artificial limb or something. The thing is, as the video itself suggested, you can THINK you're measuring one thing but you're really not.

 

[Lexxie]

I'm done here. I wanted to suggest that amirm's video, if solid and almost indisputably true, is acccepted as true, how do we raise the bar to the next level, where hifi-nerds and classically trained musicians are coming up with hybrid ideas on the next quantum leap in evaluating sound quality. OR you can just chew me up as a dog toy and go back to the recycle bin of SCIENCE=ONLY REALITY vs. subjective people saying "but I care how it makes me feel."

Even so, if I ask you to sing a C4 right now, can you do it and how many cents off will you be? FYI: each flat cent is 3.7x worse than a sharp cent. No one ever gave a scientific explanation on that one either.

 

[voodooless]

I wanted to suggest that amirm's video, if solid and almost indisputably true, is acccepted as true,

It's not indisputable. Come with clear and proper and compelling arguments. So far, you haven't brought any.

OR you can just chew me up as a dog toy and go back to the recycle bin of SCIENCE=ONLY REALITY vs.

That is exactly what science does:

the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained.

We don't need to add some woo to make a "new hybrid" "quantum leap" in evaluating sound quality. Science can do that on it's own just fine.

subjective people saying "but I care how it makes me feel."

I think you'll be better off on one of the many other audio forums. Many of them are exclusively tailored toward this mantra. And they have done so for decades already. There is nothing new to that game.

 

[Lexxie]

To voodooless, Hegel is an amp. To me, Hegel wrote the Wissenschaft der Logik

 

[Triliza]

To voodooless, Hegel is an amp. To me, Hegel wrote the Wissenschaft der Logik

That explains it, your writing style is as opaque as Hegel's was. Maybe switching to a Kant-ian style would be better for all involved.

 

[Beave]

That explains it, your writing style is as opaque as Hegel's was. Maybe switching to a Kant-ian style would be better for all involved.

Maybe if he used a better ethernet cable, his writing style would have more transparency? (I'm joking!)

 

[Lexxie]

Well at least we got some humour! The first human response here. How can we help each other ?

 

[voodooless]

You missed and did not address any single scientific thing I said,

You didn't say any? I asked for citation, but you didn't bring any.

you're unscientific and pure voodoo dogma at this point, and I'm now chew toy for anyone who can't sing.

Uhuh..

I'm here for audio science and you're better off quitting here, because you seem to be unscientific, in the EXTREME

 

[antcollinet]

I'm curious why you say that and don't act like you want to learn? MY EGO CAN TEACH YOURS! --No, mommy, he doesn't know my ego is smarter!

Really?!

Assuming we take the original subject of A/B testing of this thread as the topic, I propose:
1. amirm nailed a holy grail video, let's not argue about it anymore, please, amirm presumably posted the video so we would learn it and graduate. Class is over on that, did you get an A on the final?

So now then, I feel like I'm getting invalidated on internet by people who didn't read what I somewhat-too-verbosely said. OK, fine, my bad.
1. If you agree that amirm video nailed it, how do YOU propose to transcend current level of audio science vis-à-vis the big elephant in the room that we can't QUITE measure joy of sound quality from scientific method's current status quo in audiophiliac m.o. ?

Joined 4 days ago - check
trollling all over the place - check.

Will be gone in a few days - I guarantee it.


PS You don't lean from ego. Ego can only get in the way of learning.

 

[Lexxie]

I was referring to Triliza.

 

[BDWoody]

I'm done here.

Indeed you are, at least for now.

Take a little time off...

 

[ahofer]

Mind you, it's a funny thing objectively measuring something like subjective enjoyment

Not the point. Blind testing is to ascertain whether the *equipment* is providing an audibly different signal, and/or whether the listener prefers one signal over another without visual or confirmation bias, or priming, etc.

If you want to see which cases, dials, and prices give you better fantasies, or a “spiritual awakening” you are seeking something else. Knock yourself out, but don’t call it “fidelity” or “accuracy” or “higher quality”.

Yeesh, the ego on this guy.

 

[ahofer]

Anyone who buys Mobil 1 is an idiot to them. However, in motorcycling we don’t arrogantly bully, denigrate and insult those who spend lots on oil.

They might get rough treatment on the “Lubrication Science Review” site. Mind where we are.