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Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

D

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Well the MOJO doesn't have enough current to drive the Aeon probably. This is what I have found out with my Aeon. Many things can drive it, but the sound isn't full without a really proper high current amplifier.
With the MOJO being a portable device; it likely lacks that current.
For the tube amp; micro details will be lost and everything would be smoother. Some people like this sound but still, it's lacking in detail..
I have noticed for the Aeon though that in order to have good lows and mids; current output needs to be high. Otherwise it will have screeching highs and no body in the mids unless the volume is up way too high.
I specifically use a THX789 as my daily amp for this reason. When I have even been testing with my Geshelli Archel2 pro this last week (due to testing new DACs) I can tell the difference between the Geshelli and the 789.
The difference isn't immediately obvious and it depends on the songs. But a song with a lot of low frequencies will make me turn the volume up and then back down for the highs (sometimes in the same song, which happen a often in trance music) because the lows will be so quiet. The 789 has a more "consistent" volume and I won't need to turn it up or down.
This doesn't happen with every headphone though and the overall resolution of details is good on both amps and dacs (D70S + 789) & (SU-8S + Archel2).
To me as sinad goes down, highs are cut off. Either with the highest frequencies not being rendered properly or being blended into other frequencies. Certain background details from songs are lost the lower you go, or may be harder to make out. I notice also a harshness which can come with some Cymbals or "Slaps" (from electronic music), same with certain violin notes (the violin IMHO is the destroyer of low SINAD devices, as it has looooong notes at sometimes higher frequencies).
Since you have an Aeon X; it should be very similar to my Aeon Flow Closed. Try out what I mentioned and see if you can hear a difference if you like.
There are some cheap switches on Amazon too, where you can switch two amps. However you will need some controlled listening first to be able to distinguish details to hear quality with before you attempt to abx your system.
Nice gear, and it’s interesting to see the mix of gear you guys are using. I also have a couple pieces of tube gear, one is a Fisher integrated tube amp from 1964, I believe this was the last full tube amplifier that they did, and in 1965 they went all solid state.

Another is a Tubes4hifi SP-14 preamp that I had built recently, and that is just great sounding and enjoyable to use.

I read your description, but wanted to ask you, do you feel that any of your tube gear sounds any different that it’s solid state counterpart?
 
D

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Can you post a link to a trusted set of measurements?

Assuming that the amplifier has flat frequency response that is not modulated by speaker complex impedance and does not have excess noise, the value of total harmonic distortion that you have mentioned should be inaudible with music signal.
In case it is a valve amplifier with high output impedance, other parameters than THD may become audible.
Yes, I would like for you to take a look at the specs for me. I’m just going send you a picture, hopefully you can read that. There’s other wording in there that may be useful for you, I just got these back from Service very recently, and amazingly after 29 or 30 years the only thing wrong was a couple of capacitors in the standby section.
 

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rdenney

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If it's at all frequencies and levels up to clipping, with the load you present, then of no concern.
S
Correct, and consistent with my experience.

My hearing ain't what it once was. But when I listen to ABX comparisons of distortion levels with real music, I run out of the ability to detect a difference around -36 dB of harmonic distortion. That means an amp with 1% THD (-40 dB) is as effective for me as an amp with a THD of -120 dB. I'm sure others have hearing that is better than mine, but it's not a matter of experience--I have as much experience listening critically as most audiophiles. Maybe more.

But it certainly is a matter of training. There are those who have received special training in techniques they can use to isolate the effects of certain kinds of distortion at very low levels, but to hear them they have to use special listening techniques, such as cranking up the amplification dramatically during the reverberation tail and in the quiescent signal level that follows leading into a silent bit. I have not received that training and am just working from memory of what other have described, but I can hear distortions in the gaps at extreme amplification. (Don't try this at home. When the gap is over and the music returns, damage will result at the levels I'm talking about.)

And harmonic distortion is less noticeable than enharmonic distortion of various types. Some noise sounds like performance space ambience in a recording, and the only noise that makes any audible sense to me is quiescent hiss. Some amps produce more than others, and with efficient speakers that his can be audible in some listening environments.

Distortion early in the amplification chain is a bigger problem than later. The typical voltage gain of a power amplifier is in the upper 20's of dB, and for a preamplifier is in the range of maybe 10 dB. Together, a line level source might be subject to as much as 40 dB of voltage gain. Noise early in the chain gets amplified, but then so does the music, so it's still best to compare the noise to the maximum signal. If a source produces noise at -100 dB while the maximum signal is at 0 dB, then it will be difficult to amplify it enough for the noise to be audible when the peaks are tolerable. But a line level source at 1% distortion (-40 dB) might become audible when the 0-dB peaks are amplified to barely tolerable levels of, say, 110 dB SPL. In that case, the distortion products will be at 70 dB SPL, which is quite audible. But will we notice it when our ears are being assaulted by 110-dB music signal?

Summarizing: The ability for music lovers to hear distortion in real-world listening situations is great exaggerated, and those exaggerations are supported by much arm-waving and usually no actual measurement or testing at all. Thus, the person who is worried about that 90's amp with its 95 dB S/N would put their own mind at ease if they actually compared them with enough controls to avoid accidentally deluding themselves. Such comparisons have been made and the findings are clear.

But the distortion of an amp that is clipping can be quite audible, depending on how the amp handles clipping. I recall an article from quite a lot time ago that analyzed a number of magazine-held listening comparisons, and determined that in those tests, the amps were driven to clipping about 1% of the time. Meaning: The smaller amps of the past, when used with inefficient speakers that were and continue to be popular, clip more often than we might realize if we enjoy listening to music at levels that "seems like" a live listening experience. (An easier target for acoustic music than amplified music, of course.) When I started out in this hobby, amps that could do that were rare and expensive, because power at that level was not that easy to do. That is no longer the case. Even so, I do see the clipping indicators flashing on my amp that is capable of a solid 300 wpc into 8 ohms at the point where distortion first begins to rise noticeably. But that happens only playing very dynamically recorded percussion equipment very loud.

But that is clearly not a problem with those Classe monoblocks, which are about twice as powerful as my amp. Those are rated at -60 dB THD (0.1%) at rated power, with noise not specified beyond the signal/noise ration of 100 dB.

Rick "on the assumption that we are not being trolled" Denney
 
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peng

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Yes, I would like for you to take a look at the specs for me. I’m just going send you a picture, hopefully you can read that. There’s other wording in there that may be useful for you, I just got these back from Service very recently, and amazingly after 29 or 30 years the only thing wrong was a couple of capacitors in the standby section.

That seems like a nice amp but unfortunately Classe didn't provide much details in the specs. You can tell it is a powerful amp rated 1400 W into 4 ohms, but that's about it. I couldn't find any bench measurements for that amp. If 0.1% is at rated output, that is 700/1400W 8/4 ohms, 20-20,000 Hz, it could be much lower at lower output, without more detailed specs and measurements you have to guess. Being such a high power monblock Classe power amp, my guess is that you won't have to worry about distortions.

Can the place you sent it to for servicing do some measurements for you? When I did that with my vintage Marantz preamp/power amp, the service center that service it had an AP, albeit a very old model. They measured the THD for me without being asked.
 
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D

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Hi
That seems like a nice amp but unfortunately Classe didn't provide much details in the specs. You can tell it is a powerful amp rated 1400 W into 4 ohms, but that's about it. I couldn't find any bench measurements for that amp. If 0.1% is at rated output, that is 700/1400W 8/4 ohms, 20-20,000 Hz, it could be much lower at lower output, without more detailed specs and measurements you have to guess. Being such a high power monblock Classe power amp, my guess is that you won't have to worry about distortions.

Can the place you sent it to for servicing do some measurements for you? When I did that with my vintage Marantz preamp/power amp, the service center that service it had an AP, albeit a very old model. They measured the THD for me without being asked.
You are correct Classe Audio never seemed to provide very many specs. Just today I emailed them asking them for more specs, and I’ll post their response when I get it. They were very helpful last year when I reached out to them, because nobody would take these for repair without them being involved.

I sent them to United Radio up in Syracuse New York when I blew a couple of fuses. I got nervous because I listened to the online chatter about capacitors being shot after 20 years, and I thought there were some gone bad or another problem causing it to blow fuses. I bought these secondhand and someone changed the fuses out, and evidently the wrong ones were in there. Even Classe sent me the wrong fuses in the beginning, and it wasn’t until United radio got them in their possession that they knew what fuse to use. Strange? Yes it was.

Anyway the tech up at United radio told me that the only capacitors that were bad were in the standby section. They replaced those, and adjusted the bias I believe.

He did tell me that these were extremely well-built, and they used the best capacitors and other parts available when they were built. I thought it was pretty amazing that all those capacitors were on spec after 29 years.

Anyway they sound very good to my ears, but I’m just wondering what others thought of those specs. United was amazing, they even sent them back in original boxes.
 
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D

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Correct, and consistent with my experience.

My hearing ain't what it once was. But when I listen to ABX comparisons of distortion levels with real music, I run out of the ability to detect a difference around -36 dB of harmonic distortion. That means an amp with 1% THD (-40 dB) is as effective for me as an amp with a THD of -120 dB. I'm sure others have hearing that is better than mine, but it's not a matter of experience--I have as much experience listening critically as most audiophiles. Maybe more.

But it certainly is a matter of training. There are those who have received special training in techniques they can use to isolate the effects of certain kinds of distortion at very low levels, but to hear them they have to use special listening techniques, such as cranking up the amplification dramatically during the reverberation tail and in the quiescent signal level that follows leading into a silent bit. I have not received that training and am just working from memory of what other have described, but I can hear distortions in the gaps at extreme amplification. (Don't try this at home. When the gap is over and the music returns, damage will result at the levels I'm talking about.)

And harmonic distortion is less noticeable than enharmonic distortion of various types. Some noise sounds like performance space ambience in a recording, and the only noise that makes any audible sense to me is quiescent hiss. Some amps produce more than others, and with efficient speakers that his can be audible in some listening environments.

Distortion early in the amplification chain is a bigger problem than later. The typical voltage gain of a power amplifier is in the upper 20's of dB, and for a preamplifier is in the range of maybe 10 dB. Together, a line level source might be subject to as much as 40 dB of voltage gain. Noise early in the chain gets amplified, but then so does the music, so it's still best to compare the noise to the maximum signal. If a source produces noise at -100 dB while the maximum signal is at 0 dB, then it will be difficult to amplify it enough for the noise to be audible when the peaks are tolerable. But a line level source at 1% distortion (-40 dB) might become audible when the 0-dB peaks are amplified to barely tolerable levels of, say, 110 dB SPL. In that case, the distortion products will be at 70 dB SPL, which is quite audible. But will we notice it when our ears are being assaulted by 110-dB music signal?

Summarizing: The ability for music lovers to hear distortion in real-world listening situations is great exaggerated, and those exaggerations are supported by much arm-waving and usually no actual measurement or testing at all. Thus, the person who is worried about that 90's amp with its 95 dB S/N would put their own mind at ease if they actually compared them with enough controls to avoid accidentally deluding themselves. Such comparisons have been made and the findings are clear.

But the distortion of an amp that is clipping can be quite audible, depending on how the amp handles clipping. I recall an article from quite a lot time ago that analyzed a number of magazine-held listening comparisons, and determined that in those tests, the amps were driven to clipping about 1% of the time. Meaning: The smaller amps of the past, when used with inefficient speakers that were and continue to be popular, clip more often than we might realize if we enjoy listening to music at levels that "seems like" a live listening experience. (An easier target for acoustic music than amplified music, of course.) When I started out in this hobby, amps that could do that were rare and expensive, because power at that level was not that easy to do. That is no longer the case. Even so, I do see the clipping indicators flashing on my amp that is capable of a solid 300 wpc into 8 ohms at the point where distortion first begins to rise noticeably. But that happens only playing very dynamically recorded percussion equipment very loud.

But that is clearly not a problem with those Classe monoblocks, which are about twice as powerful as my amp. Those are rated at -60 dB THD (0.1%) at rated power, with noise not specified beyond the signal/noise ration of 100 dB.

Rick "on the assumption that we are not being trolled" Denney
This is the kind of info I was looking for, and no trolling here lol. I honestly wanted to hear what the major contributors had to say. Good stuff guys
 

peng

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Hi

You are correct Classe Audio never seemed to provide very many specs. Just today I emailed them asking them for more specs, and I’ll post their response when I get it. They were very helpful last year when I reached out to them, because nobody would take these for repair without them being involved.

I sent them to United Radio up in Syracuse New York when I blew a couple of fuses. I got nervous because I listened to the online chatter about capacitors being shot after 20 years, and I thought there were some gone bad or another problem causing it to blow fuses. I bought these secondhand and someone changed the fuses out, and evidently the wrong ones were in there. Even Classe sent me the wrong fuses in the beginning, and it wasn’t until United radio got them in their possession that they knew what fuse to use. Strange? Yes it was.

Anyway the tech up at United radio told me that the only capacitors that were bad were in the standby section. They replaced those, and adjusted the bias I believe.

He did tell me that these were extremely well-built, and they used the best capacitors and other parts available when they were built. I thought it was pretty amazing that all those capacitors were on spec after 29 years.

Anyway they sound very good to my ears, but I’m just wondering what others thought of those specs. United was amazing, they even sent them back in original boxes.

The newer models do have tons more specs and a few measurements by Stereophile, here's ONE, that is probably 10 years newer than yours. Yours may (or may not) have higher distortions but I doubt it would be above the threshold.
 
D

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The newer models do have tons more specs and a few measurements by Stereophile, here's ONE, that is probably 10 years newer than yours. Yours may (or may not) have higher distortions but I doubt it would be above the threshold.
I appreciate you taking the time for this, thanks a lot my friend.
 
D

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@peng

Hi, I received an answer from Classe about the specs. They sent me the exact same thing that is on hi-fi engine. I’m going to reach out to United radio up in Syracuse New York, just to see what they say.
 

peng

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@peng

Hi, I received an answer from Classe about the specs. They sent me the exact same thing that is on hi-fi engine. I’m going to reach out to United radio up in Syracuse New York, just to see what they say.

That is as expected, the first level support typically are not that technical so they would just grab the same information that you have already grabbed. Sometimes if you insist, they may forward the question to level 2, such as engineering etc. but its a hit and miss thing.
 
D

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That is as expected, the first level support typically are not that technical so they would just grab the same information that you have already grabbed. Sometimes if you insist, they may forward the question to level 2, such as engineering etc. but its a hit and miss thing.
Amazingly they still want to talk to me even with 30-year-old amplifiers, so that’s kind of cool. They could have not answered me, but they did help me get my amps to service. They were great, and they have my respect for that.
 

j_j

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I said this before, I'll say it again.

The error spectrum is the key. A bit of low-order distortion is probably inaudible. High order distortion, noise far removed (in frequency) from the signal, or IMD that's pushed something way down in frequency can really, truly s**k.
 

j_j

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Did not you mean THD+N to SINAD? I cannot imagine direct relation between THD and SNR.
If THD is measured in the usual way including noise, it's exactly related to SNR. What's the problem? SNR is SIGNAL TO NOISE RATION. THD+N is simply another way of stating it.
 

pma

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If THD is measured in the usual way including noise, it's exactly related to SNR. What's the problem? SNR is SIGNAL TO NOISE RATION. THD+N is simply another way of stating it.

The problem is that THD is normally defined as the ratio of the RMS amplitude of a set of higher harmonic frequencies to the RMS amplitude of the first harmonic

4f9de3b50d754605a2f23e1a92f7dd682eb654a0


or to the the fundamental plus harmonics as the reference,

009ac7d2318ca113dd00153d61551625a2c0660a

and it does not include noise.


THD+N includes noise component, THD does not include noise. It is an important difference.

1660722421773.png


THD_THDN_1kHz.png
 
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Hayabusa

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The problem is that THD is normally defined as the ratio of the RMS amplitude of a set of higher harmonic frequencies to the RMS amplitude of the first harmonic

4f9de3b50d754605a2f23e1a92f7dd682eb654a0


or to the the fundamental plus harmonics as the reference,

009ac7d2318ca113dd00153d61551625a2c0660a

and it does not include noise.


THD+N includes noise component, THD does not include noise. It is an important difference.

View attachment 224830

View attachment 224839
:)

I wonder if there is nice formula to calculate the signal noise ratio of this discussion...
 

j_j

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The problem is that THD is normally defined as the ratio of the RMS amplitude of a set of higher harmonic frequencies to the RMS amplitude of the first harmonic

You mean fundamental, right? Not 'first harmonic'?

And, again, every device I've used simply measures the energy remaining when the fundamental is removed. That includes noise, even if you don't want it to include noise.

Simply put, one measurement is the energy of the signal plus the noise (including distortions) and the other is the same measure, but with the signal removed. Measured via an energy measure.

Why you think "RMS" is important here is not obvious to me. You're just measuring energy another way.
 
D

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That is as expected, the first level support typically are not that technical so they would just grab the same information that you have already grabbed. Sometimes if you insist, they may forward the question to level 2, such as engineering etc. but its a hit and miss thing.
Have you seen the prices of some Classe Audio’s new gear?! Ouch!

I’m going to push the envelope to see how many specs I can get. Not that big of a deal because I really can’t hear any distortion, but I would just like to know.
 

pma

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And, again, every device I've used simply measures the energy remaining when the fundamental is removed. That includes noise, even if you don't want it to include noise.

I agree it was true in the past, but all newer devices measure THD harmonics simply at multiples of fundamental frequency, as a software action.

A THD+N analyzer operates by removing the fundamental signal with a notch (bandreject) filter, then measuring everything left over. The “left over” signal in this case is the wide-band
noise.

A THD analyzer makes highly selective amplitude measurements only at each specific harmonic product frequencies.
The bandwidth of these selective measurements is so narrow that noise has almost no effect. In such a noise-limited case, a THD analyzer (such as Harmonic Distortion Analyzer) may produce a significantly lower value than a THD+N analyzer (such as the Analog Analyzer or DSP Audio Analyzer in THD+N functions).
 

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