Audibility of AVR's vs ASR's better reviewed equipment?

[goldark]

I realize that the AVR's here are graded somewhat on a curve and don't measure up there with the best amplifiers and DAC's on this site (in terms of SINAD, among other things).

But is this actually audible in a blind test? (assuming no room correction is engaged).

If I have a middling AVR currently, is there a sonic reason to upgrade to something more "ASR approved" if I didn't need any updated features?

 

[delta76]

room correction would make bigger impact than 10 SINAD difference, so I'm not sure why you leave it out of the equation.
Nothing beat an AVR in term of P/P given the significant bigger market they are.

 

[TSB]

Probably not if the amp is not running out of power.

 

[fpitas]

Agreed, you probably won't hear any difference. It's fun seeing all those 0s for the distortion, but maybe not meaningful IRL. Anything approaching 0.01% distortion is probably good enough.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

For a real eye (or ear) opener, I keep on directing people to see (hear?) how much distortion they can hear....
You will quickly realize that any AVR that does -80 dB is good enough for the purpose.. and let's keep in mind that most any LP chain would not go beyond 50 dB SINAD, including the expensive LP + Tubes contraptions some audiophiles are fond of..
A good AVR such as the Denon AVR-X3700 is a formidable audio anchor for most audiophiles. They see it as an HT devices, it is that of course, but much more when correctly set up and used.
Here is the Klippel Listening Test

Peace

 

[Dj7675]

I realize that the AVR's here are graded somewhat on a curve and don't measure up there with the best amplifiers and DAC's on this site (in terms of SINAD, among other things).

But is this actually audible in a blind test? (assuming no room correction is engaged).

If I have a middling AVR currently, is there a sonic reason to upgrade to something more "ASR approved" if I didn't need any updated features?

Random and evolving thoughts…
-As @FrantzM has noted, distortion is very hard to hear. SINAD is THD(distortion)+Noise
-Depending on your speaker sensitivity, how close you sit to those speakers, and how loud you listen, noise could be an issue. This is something you could hear as hiss in your speakers. When at your max volume do you hear any hiss/noise coming from the speakers?
-Some people like to be sure that their system will be free from distortion and noise. The higher the SINAD the more certainty you will have. Others will know that distortion with material is difficult to hear and go at it from a practical standpoint. If I can’t hear noise then I’m unlikely to ever hear distortion with actual content
-I like to purchase well engineered products and be as certain as I can that it isn’t an issue, but am aware that I would probably fail a double blind test with content with a product at a SINAD of 80 under most circumstances. My StormAudio is around 100 SINAD and with my current speakers are dead silent. So for me I would hope for something over 90 but who knows if a product had the right feature set, etc for a particular use I would loose any sleep over it.
-The bigger issues with sound quality will be speakers, room eq, subwoofer integration, software stability, warranty/support, useability, enough power/current to drive your speakers, speaker setup, etc etc…
-The reviews here I still find very important as they provide a snapshot of where things stand, expose bugs/shortcomings, etc. Without them we would have no idea on the current state of things and spur manufacturers to do better.
YMMV

 

[YSC]

Hi

For a real eye (or ear) opener, I keep on directing people to see (hear?) how much distortion they can hear....
You will quickly realize that any AVR that does -80 dB is good enough for the purpose.. and let's keep in mind that most any LP chain would not go beyond 50 dB SINAD, including the expensive LP + Tubes contraptions some audiophiles are found of..
A good AVR such as the Denon AVR-X3700 is a formidable audio anchor for most audiophiles. They see it as an HT devices, it is that of course, but much more when correctly set up and used.
Here is the Klippel Listening Test

Peace

just did it with TV from next room and a high cpu fan running pc, result was -45db, I was like really unable to percieve any distortion at -51db at low listening volume, so it seems at my listening level, distortion below ~-50db is great enough

 

[NirreFirre]

Random and evolving thoughts…
-As @FrantzM has noted, distortion is very hard to hear. SINAD is THD(distortion)+Noise
-Depending on your speaker sensitivity, how close you sit to those speakers, and how loud you listen, noise could be an issue. This is something you could hear as hiss in your speakers. When at your max volume do you hear any hiss/noise coming from the speakers?
-Some people like to be sure that their system will be free from distortion and noise. The higher the SINAD the more certainty you will have. Others will know that distortion with material is difficult to hear and go at it from a practical standpoint. If I can’t hear noise then I’m unlikely to ever hear distortion with actual content
-I like to purchase well engineered products and be as certain as I can that it isn’t an issue, but am aware that I would probably fail a double blind test with content with a product at a SINAD of 80 under most circumstances. My StormAudio is around 100 SINAD and with my current speakers are dead silent. So for me I would hope for something over 90 but who knows if a product had the right feature set, etc for a particular use I would loose any sleep over it.
-The bigger issues with sound quality will be speakers, room eq, subwoofer integration, software stability, warranty/support, useability, enough power/current to drive your speakers, speaker setup, etc etc…
-The reviews here I still find very important as they provide a snapshot of where things stand, expose bugs/shortcomings, etc. Without them we would have no idea on the current state of things and spur manufacturers to do better.
YMMV

Exactly. Looking at the electronic parts of the reproduction chain is widely regarded as pretty pointless where I come from (www.faktiskt.io, Swedish forum with similar science and technology based members) when most regular speakers have distortion in the full percentages when playing at or near reference level, especially in the lower frequencies.

Actually. The designer of Guru Audio has made a point of this, demoing his "non public" speakers (starting at ~$600 but most being around $2-4000) he design under the name Ino Audio (Ingvar Öhman) in a pretty good acousticly treated cellar, using a Denon AVR from ~2005. They blow a lot of first listeners off their feet, having a good design and very low distortion.

DACs, gain on a wire and DRCs, DSPs etc have to be of somewhat good performance but they're pointless upgrades until your room and speakers are sorted.. and - your source material is recorded well enough. Popular music material is seldom realistic enough to give you "I'm at the session/concert" vibes these days.. "Sounds good" is one thing, but hard to relate to (fidelity wise) if every instrument and performance are processed into something you have no reference to on how it sounds in real life. Having experienced the almost scary realism (pitch black room to focus on the hearing) some natural recorded tracks in that cellar, that made me rise the bar for where one can get out of a reproduction system/chain. I recommend all to try to get these sorts of demos.

 

[Plcamp]

My experience with a Yamaha RXA3030 AVR was that I needed an ext power amp because of low impedance woofers, and the preouts from the AVR were slightly noisy compared to an E30 DAC that is dead quiet. Otherwise same, both sound great. The AVR versatility as a video/audio controller with a Chromecast source is great.

 

[rana_kirti]

My preferred avrs have been given Not Recommended by asr. So I've decided to wait for 2024 models.

 

[YSC]

My preferred avrs have been given Not Recommended by asr. So I've decided to wait for 2024 models.

Why bother, not recommended but if the performance is ok (like ~75+db SINAD for amp and 96db for dac) it really is beyond audible defects, with the power and functionality fits your need then it’s a ok purchase, but of course, the hype from acquiring some fantastic gear would feel less.

 

[apgood]

Hi

For a real eye (or ear) opener, I keep on directing people to see (hear?) how much distortion they can hear....
You will quickly realize that any AVR that does -80 dB is good enough for the purpose.. and let's keep in mind that most any LP chain would not go beyond 50 dB SINAD, including the expensive LP + Tubes contraptions some audiophiles are fond of..
A good AVR such as the Denon AVR-X3700 is a formidable audio anchor for most audiophiles. They see it as an HT devices, it is that of course, but much more when correctly set up and used.
Here is the Klippel Listening Test

Peace

I think LP + Tube amp isn't about 100% faithful reproduction of the source. It is about adding something to the source that the listener finds pleasing and increases their engagement with what they ate listening to.

In this respect you can't really compare it to sound reproduction which is more about being true to the source and using technologies such as room correction to take external factors like the room (and even speaker voicing to an extent) out of the equation. Here minimising thing's like distortion, noise floor, etc can be more important in order to maximise processing headroom, etc.

Conversely in a multi channel setup for movies (especially action type movies) where there is a lot going on with explosions, sudden noises fleeting from different speakers and a lot going on visually you are probably less likely to notice the subtle differences in sound unless you listen to the same sections repeatedly vs 2 channel music or even multi channel music where the listener isn't distracted by what is going on visually and is listening for the subtlies in the music.

Not saying -80dB isn't enough but if engaging the room correction lowers it another 10 or so then it may become an issue. I remember with my old Denon 6300 engaging room correction raised the noise floor enough that I noticed it in silent passages vs when it wasn't engaged. Luckily with my current setup I don't have that issue even though my power amps probably only have a SINAD of 80 to 85

 

[Beershaun]

Amir and others have posted much content on this topic. I'd suggest reading these threads to understand what goes in to audibility threshold calculations and preference scores and a more general understanding of what and how things matter to help you decide on what your standards should be. Sorry it's such a big list but there is so much good content and your preferred method of consumption may vary.

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The Signal Chain: How do noise and distortion propagate through my system?

This article is to explore how noise and distortion change through our system, and how different components can influence the final output. A common question is “If I have DAC A, preamp B, and amp C, where should I set the volume and gain controls for the best performance?” Usually this...

audiosciencereview.com

Harmonic and Intermodulation Distortion

This post provides a quick comparison of how a distortion percentage relates to dynamic range in dB. That is, if an amplifier has 1% distortion, what does that mean? How soft (or loud) is 1%? Figure 1 shows a 1 kHz voltage signal with 1% second harmonic distortion (HD2) added. The spectral...

audiosciencereview.com

Dynamic Range: How Quiet is Quiet?

Dynamic Range: How Quiet is Quiet? By Amir Majidimehr [Note: This article was originally published in the Widescreen Review Magazine] Most people think of dynamic range as how loud something is. Mathematically though, dynamic range is a ratio. It is the loudest signal divided by “root mean...

audiosciencereview.com

Clipping 101

Amplifier clipping has been cited as the cause of audible distortion, destruction of speakers (especially tweeters), and total annihilation of the known universe. More or less. In fact, clipping does cause distortion that adds significant high-frequency content not in the original signal, and...

audiosciencereview.com

Room Modes

Room interactions are often discussed as one of the primary reasons similar (or even dissimilar) systems sound different. If you read the “Reflections and DACs” thread you saw how reflections and standing waves can interact along a transmission line. As it happens, sound waves in a room also...

audiosciencereview.com

Understanding Audio Frequency Response & Psychoacoustics (Video)

For some of you this is old news but for many, I thought it would be good to do a tutorial on frequency response. No, not the trivial aspects of it but digging into psychoacoustics so that you can properly analyze headphone, speaker and room measurements and determine audibility of deviations...

audiosciencereview.com

Understanding Audio Dynamic Range / SNR (Part 1)

Hello everyone. I am a bit under the weather today so didn't do any measurements but thought I do a video on dynamic range / signal to noise ratio and what it means at high level. In a future video I will dive much deeper into how much of it we need. So consider this the first installment...

audiosciencereview.com