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Audeze LCD MX4 measurements

GGekko

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Here are a collection of frequency response graphs of the Audeze LCD MX4 I assembled. The first one I made from posts on head-fi (pardon my poor photoshop skills :p). The second is from DIY Audio heaven. The third one is taken from audiofanatyk.pl. I was wondering if someone on this forum has these headphones and/or other measurements as I'm interested in overall tonality and unit to unit variation.
Additionally these headphones are advertised as being "30% lighter" than other LCDs, which I found not to be the case (pics attached). If someone has weight measurements I would be interested as well.
MX4 Graphs.png
DIY Audio Heaven.png
mx4-frequency-response-graph-01.jpg
1.JPG
2.JPG
 

Soniclife

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What target curves have been used?
Are there any measurements that show the change from their own DSP in their app or roon?
 

Mad_Economist

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What target curves have been used?
Are there any measurements that show the change from their own DSP in their app or roon?

The Neumann head includes an internal equalization network which is intended to roughly make it diffuse field compensated, although its results differ a fair amount from most other HATS and should be taken with a grain of salt.

By appearances the other two measurements were conducted on DIY measurement systems and thus cannot be compensated to any HRTF related target - and should be taken with a large grain of salt.

Measurements of the Audeze Reveal equalizations seem to suggest that their result will be somewhat "Harman target"ish with most of their headphones - I'd hazard that the MX4 will be no exception here.
 

andreasmaaan

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By appearances the other two measurements were conducted on DIY measurement systems and thus cannot be compensated to any HRTF related target - and should be taken with a large grain of salt.

You can read about how @solderdude applies compensation on the DIYheaven website. I actually think his approach is very good, possibly better correlated with perceived tonality than many commercially available measurement systems. As always with headphone measurements, there are good reasons to be critical, but maybe the grain of salt should be no larger than for the commercially available options..
 

Mad_Economist

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You can read about how @solderdude applies compensation on the DIYheaven website. I actually think his approach is very good, possibly better correlated with perceived tonality than many commercially available measurement systems. As always with headphone measurements, there are good reasons to be critical, but maybe the grain of salt should be no larger than for the commercially available options..

I am aware of Solderdude's methods. While I greatly respect the effort he has put into DIYAH, and his constructive interactions on this and other forums, his measurements are fundamentally and irreparably compromised by his use of an earless flat plate coupler for headphone measurements. His system as described by his site would be suitable for an assembly line QC jig, but will produce inconsistent results relative to on-head response for different headphones.

I hope it is not a problem for me to link a moderately sized post I made on this topic on another forum recently - if it is, please let me know, and I will replace this by directly linking the text and significant figures on a different hosting site. Using my industry standard HATS - whose HRTF is close to the average of the human population - I compared an older, anthropomorphic mannequin which omitted ear canal impedance emulation, a cheap binaural microphone marketed for headphone measurements by MiniDSP, and an earless flat plate of the sort used by Solderdude - if you don't feel like slogging through the post, this is the significant figure. Even for a fairly small range of circumaural headphones, the earless flat plate produced substantial deviations, not just in absolute terms, but specific and unique to each headphone, from the HATS. This means that a single compensation will never be viable, as the differences are specific to the headphone and measurement system rather than the measurement system alone.

While the perceptual validity of different response targets is an ongoing topic in the world of headphones, we have little reason to believe that the measurements we are applying these targets to are unreliable or inconsistent (for a given tolerance) - the same, sadly, cannot be said of these DIY systems.
 

pwjazz

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Mad_Economist

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In my measurements of my LCD2C (admittedly made with a cheap E.A.R.S.) it looks like the reveal settings do indeed bring bass and low mids closer to Harman but barely affect the dipped presence region.

Indeed - I'm not sure whether this is a function of Audeze's in-house target, or how they prefer to do their equalized corrections, but their characteristically dipped and somewhat uneven relative to standard targets treble doesn't seem to be changed much by Reveal. Since treble - and overall frequency response, for the large open-backed models that make up most of their lineup - doesn't seem to vary much for Audezes, perhaps that's just what their ideal looks like.
 

pwjazz

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perhaps that's just what their ideal looks like

Yeah, I think that's their house sound. People describe it as laid back or relaxed, which is partially true. I've grown to find it kind of dull. My personal preference trends closer to the Harman ideal of a gently downward sloping response through the whole treble, which comes across to me as relaxed without being dull.
 

EvilKillaruna

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By appearances the other two measurements were conducted on DIY measurement systems and thus cannot be compensated to any HRTF related target - and should be taken with a large grain of salt.

Measurements of the Audeze Reveal equalizations seem to suggest that their result will be somewhat "Harman target"ish with most of their headphones - I'd hazard that the MX4 will be no exception here.

Greetings from Poland, I am Jacob, the owner and author of Audiofanatyk.pl :).

To clarify some things, I am not using DIY measurement system, mostly because of what you have said. In my case I am using EACS from 3dio. Not "OMG" gear, but it is fairly accurate to the point of being quite sure about the results, even if they are shown only in raw form, without any compensation. From what I know, only DIYAH is using fully DIY, self made, measuring system.



What target curves have been used?
Are there any measurements that show the change from their own DSP in their app or roon?

I believe I've posted such results but solely to show only how Reveal works.
https://www.audiofanatyk.pl/audeze-reveal-dsp-plugin-instalacja-i-wrazenia-foobar2000-lcd2/
The results will vary because Reveal have a profile for each particular model. But you can extract the basic principle when using Reveal as reducing/enhancing dips and peaks in FR. For example LCD-XC can become duller, warmer, but LCD-2C can become brighter, when Reveal is used.



The third one is taken from audiofanatyk.pl. I was wondering if someone on this forum has these headphones and/or other measurements as I'm interested in overall tonality and unit to unit variation.

Unfortunately, I personally have only LCD-2 and LCD-XC. On my forum there is not even one person with LCD-MX4. In Poland this particular model seems to be underrated, unknown and generally avoided in favor of more renown models, like HE1000. I am not even sure if my review of MX4 was the first in whole country. But for me it was very interesting pair of headphones, surprisingly very similar in overall tonality to my AKG K270 Studio. Right now I am trying to get my hands on LCD-4z and with some luck, I should be able to do it and be able to compare the raw measurements between both models directly.

Sorry if my english is a mess somewhere. I am rarely using it, so it is quite rusty :).
 

Mad_Economist

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Greetings from Poland, I am Jacob, the owner and author of Audiofanatyk.pl :).

To clarify some things, I am not using DIY measurement system, mostly because of what you have said. In my case I am using EACS from 3dio. Not "OMG" gear, but it is fairly accurate to the point of being quite sure about the results, even if they are shown only in raw form, without any compensation. From what I know, only DIYAH is using fully DIY, self made, measuring system.

Hello Jacob, thank you for commenting :)

The 3dio mic will likely be pretty similar to the MiniDSP which has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, although I believe it uses a different capsule. Consequently, as it features a pinna (albeit in inaccurate one), it will likely be more consistent for headphone measurements than, for example, an earless plate like that of DIYAH/Solderdude. However, I am curious, where does your compensation curve come from? The response does not appear to show much rise into the ear resonance which, even without an ear simulator, systems with pinnae and canals tend to feature in some way or shape - a very sharp resonance in the case of the EARS, for example - so I presume you're applying some compensation to smooth it out?

As far as DIY systems, there are actually more than you would think out there - the owner of another English-speaking headphone forum constructed his own, and many people on that site have followed suit. Unfortunately, as said, their results are not terribly useful.
 

EvilKillaruna

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Thank you too for kind reply :)

Yes, exactly this was my general observation with various DIY systems and their readings. Even comparing readings of for example DT150 on my system and some DIY ones I've noticed differences from like 2-3 kHz up top. There will be of course differences, I am conscious of that, and I hold a great amount of respect for such systems and their owners, since they require knowledge, money and time. That is why on some point I've decided to go with more "safer" scenario and for better consistency (and my personal ease of mind) I've bought 3dio in May 2017.

Smoothing - yes, I am using 1/24 octave smoothing, mostly because readings looks much cleaner this way without interfering with the results too much.

Left channel for MX4 should be like this with/without smoothing:

Nr9B7Cj.jpg


It seems to be appreciated by the readers, because they can grasp the frequency response curve easier. But other than that, the readings are directly from microphones.
 

Mad_Economist

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Thank you too for kind reply :)

Yes, exactly this was my general observation with various DIY systems and their readings. Even comparing readings of for example DT150 on my system and some DIY ones I've noticed differences from like 2-3 kHz up top. There will be of course differences, I am conscious of that, and I hold a great amount of respect for such systems and their owners, since they require knowledge, money and time. That is why on some point I've decided to go with more "safer" scenario and for better consistency (and my personal ease of mind) I've bought 3dio in May 2017.

Smoothing - yes, I am using 1/24 octave smoothing, mostly because readings looks much cleaner this way without interfering with the results too much.

Left channel for MX4 should be like this with/without smoothing:

Nr9B7Cj.jpg


It seems to be appreciated by the readers, because they can grasp the frequency response curve easier. But other than that, the readings are directly from microphones.

Interesting. I had been assuming you were using some sort of a compensation, but looking at some of the other measurements on your site, it looks like the peak on the 3dio manifests higher and at a lower amplitude than the EARS (and your rather large scale threw me off a bit, admittedly - I tend to favour 50dB). Looking at some pictures on the web, it looks like the canal is noticeably shorter, which likely explains this - neat. I had been operating under the assumption that the EARS was just a clone of the 3dios with different mic capsules, but it looks like they deliberately changed the canal length, likely to accommodate IEMs.

It looks like the peak still might roam around a bit with different headphones in ways that don't necessarily log to a real HATS, unfortunately, although I'm mostly eyeballing it. If it wouldn't be too much of an inconvenience, would it be possible to get the frequency response data for your measurements of the HD800/S, LCD2Classic, Euphony AF100, Edition X V2, and if you measured it K501? I have measured these headphones or similar (HD800, LCD2Classic, NVX XPT100/Brainwavz HM5, Ananda, K501), and could compare the results as I did in my above post if you could get me some CSVs.

And FWIW I'd certainly say 1/24 smoothing is quite a reasonable amount - nothing gets hidden at that level, but it's a bit nicer to look at :)
 

EvilKillaruna

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3Dio have shallow capsule placement, so while there are some resonances - especially with closed-back headphones - there should not be any major issues with it. Rather, I am still not sure if I should keep posting raw data only, or rather sit down and try to develop a properly compensated ones. Anyway, CSV's are in attachement.
 

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Mad_Economist

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3Dio have shallow capsule placement, so while there are some resonances - especially with closed-back headphones - there should not be any major issues with it. Rather, I am still not sure if I should keep posting raw data only, or rather sit down and try to develop a properly compensated ones. Anyway, CSV's are in attachement.

To develop a compensation will be difficult, as such a system obviously cannot use the published generic HRTF targets (ex. Møller's diffuse field measurements of human population averages) or targets for specific systems (ex. Harman target for GRAS ear and cheek sims), and even if you had a suitable reverb chamber for diffuse field calibration, the results probably wouldn't log consistently to subjective perception.

I have done some analysis of the csvs you sent - unfortunately, it would appear that our sequence lengths and sample rates differed, so I have manually set the data for three headphones (HD800, LCD2Classic, and K501) into the R80/24dB-oct bands for this analysis - if we ever do this again, I'll probably just want .wavs of the impulses to analyze myself :p


4128C vs. 3dio raws.png

As is typical, looking at the raw responses is a bit of a mess, so I subtracted the HATS results (which were each made from an average of 5 positions on the left ear) from the 3Dio results:

4128C-3Dio.png

The sub-1khz disparity with the LCD2C implies to me that positioning or unit variation may be producing a difference there, as there is no reason I can think of that two open dynamics should cohere well while a sealed front planar differs that severely - and this should be below the range of ear interactions for the most part anyway, particularly under 400hz, where the departure is most severe.

4128C-3io min-max.png

Thus ignoring the low frequency deviation for the most part, the 3dio does indeed appear to have a less sharp peak, and possibly a less variable one depending on what we attribute the variation in the rise into ear resonance to - notably, the K501 and HD800 agree well up to 3khz, and Audezes have been known to vary in response, so the cause there may also be attributable to unit variation.

Overall, the variation is lower than I expected when the LCD2C is counted out, and still substantially superior to an earless flat plate when it is considered. At higher frequencies things are of course quite variable, but some of this will also be a matter of the positions we chose for our averages.
 

EvilKillaruna

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Thank you for in-depth analysis. I appreciate very much your time and effort, especially since this is the first time when my readings are so much confronted and objectively analysed.

So, as I can understand:
  • my system seems to be superior against earless DIY systems (good thing),
  • even compared to 25k$ HATS, the system looks not that bad and my readings can be considered somehow valid (good thing),
  • there is a little room for applying a proper compensation curves for this system (bad thing),
  • I probably should stick with raw frequency response just as I am working with them right now (no need for changes?).
A huge and repeatable difference in ~1-4 kHz caught my attention here, where my system is getting quieter, without strong emphasis on this particular area. At the same time the peak in 6 kHz seems to be a little stronger. I am surprised mostly because I always thought about strong accuracy for this system up to 10 kHz and only from that point the readings should be less and less accurate. So much difference in 1-4 kHz really puzzles me. And reminds me of various target curves, like:

qXwSD4p.png


When I for example open my readings for LCD-2F, put them on and try to examine aquired data with my own ears, there is no such emphasis in 1-4 kHz. In HD800 - the same situation, strong peak in 6 kHz but no emphasis on 1-4 kHz range, both on my readings and when listening test signal (sine wave). Of course this way of verification is very inaccurate because of the human hearing curve, but I believe there should be at least some of the practical corelation between the tonality you are getting from synthetic readings and with your ears.

With 2C I agree that there is indeed an error on my side with proper placement. That is the reason for the graph getting huge dip in ~9kHz and ~16 kHz. With sub 1kHz differences, silicone ears often are getting in the way. They are quite stiff and can cause improper earpad sealing, which affect the amount of lows in readings. This thing can be in many cases corrected by holding headphones tight with velcro strap, so the silicone ears would bend easier. Not the most professional way, but quite effective.
 

solderdude

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A huge and repeatable difference in ~1-4 kHz caught my attention here, where my system is getting quieter, without strong emphasis on this particular area. At the same time the peak in 6 kHz seems to be a little stronger. I am surprised mostly because I always thought about strong accuracy for this system up to 10 kHz and only from that point the readings should be less and less accurate. So much difference in 1-4 kHz really puzzles me.

When I for example open my readings for LCD-2F, put them on and try to examine aquired data with my own ears, there is no such emphasis in 1-4 kHz. In HD800 - the same situation, strong peak in 6 kHz but no emphasis on 1-4 kHz range, both on my readings and when listening test signal (sine wave). Of course this way of verification is very inaccurate because of the human hearing curve, but I believe there should be at least some of the practical corelation between the tonality you are getting from synthetic readings and with your ears.

I don't think this verification is very inaccurate at all and believe is what measurements should be all about. Correlation to perceived sound.
Of course one needs to have a reference and decent ears.
Also I believe our brain already compensates for our Pinna and ear canal through daily calibration with real sounds and knows when sounds are coming from what angle and how to 'EQ' those sounds internally.

Noticed this as well. IME there is more correllation using a flat plate and feel that any changes made to the incoming sound waves ('universal Pinna' and sometimes fake ear canals) cause irreparable 'damage' as the exact compensation curve is obtained using very different methods that look nothing like when a driver is just a few cm from the ears. I also believe not every one hears the same in the sense that preference and 'references' differ as well as the known hearing issues.

When I EQ 2 different based on HATS measurements they will probably measure equally 'flat' but can sound totally different.
When I EQ acc. to a flat plate, which is what I do + compensation based on the fact that we usually listen at lower levels than the 80-85dB average where studio recordings are mixed at, the tonal balance differences between the 2 different headphones are much smaller than between those measured with HATS.
That's what I am interested in. Perceived vs measured and correlation.

I don't believe in F-ing up a measurement of a driver and try to repair it later for correlation.
Usually I compare this with measuring FR of a DAC through a filter that can have 20dB differences and where the filter changes somewhat every time another DAC is connected and then apply a digital and fixed filter that compensates somewhat.
Also I don't think one should have a smooth reflecting measurement surface either.

This post is just to give you an alternative view.
I may be totally wrong in my many years of experience though and apologise up front if my ramblings are just that.
Don't have any education in acoustics nor music is my disclaimer.
Just have some knowledge about electronics and measurements but realize I know only a little and learn every day.
 
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EvilKillaruna

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Thank you for your valuable and reassuring input. I am glad we share a similar perspective :).

I too cannnot boast about education in acoustic field, so I really have no problem with anyone within that matter. I am writing reviews on my blog since 2008 simply as a hobbyist. FR graphs are actually a quite recent addition and I am not considering them as a goal itself, but rather as more objective part of the very subjective picture of the whole. I must admit, there is still much to learn in the area of measurements for me and little by little I am building my experience and - as a consequence - confidence. I exchanged just a few posts on this forum, and I have already learned something new and found out interesting things.

I have seen some people who put FR graphs above everything else, as same as those who passionately neglecting them as a worhtless piece of information. I believe both groups are fundamentally wrong. I goal is to make measurements work in very tight relationship with the description of the whole picture. More like a documentary material, so the thing you are intrested with - percieved vs measured - are sorted out automatically within the review itself by author (me), who is trying to understand why particular pair of headphones sounds like it sounds, what parts of FRG can cause that, what can be done to make them sounds better and why I am even considering the certain aspects of final sound as better/worse.

Because we are talking about certain headphones - the MX4 - I would like to give Ggekko not only raw measurements, but also a proper description if those measurements are translating into good sound and why. In my opinion, MX4 are a little too dark by stock and require slightly brighter system plus better cable than stock one. FR graph can back it up - from 7kHz up, those headphones seem to lose their energy and as a possible owner, he should consider reinforcing this area. Otherwise, MX4 can fall short behind LCD-2, much cheaper pair, in terms of soundstage and feeling of freshness. I believe this is what you are also looking for: perceived vs measured and correlation.
 

Mad_Economist

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Thank you for in-depth analysis. I appreciate very much your time and effort, especially since this is the first time when my readings are so much confronted and objectively analysed.

So, as I can understand:
  • my system seems to be superior against earless DIY systems (good thing),
  • even compared to 25k$ HATS, the system looks not that bad and my readings can be considered somehow valid (good thing),
  • there is a little room for applying a proper compensation curves for this system (bad thing),
  • I probably should stick with raw frequency response just as I am working with them right now (no need for changes?).

Thank you for being so receptive to my commentary - I hope this can prove fruitful to us both :) Going line by line for clarity:

  • my system seems to be superior against earless DIY systems (good thing),

Substantially superior, indeed - I have done some additional analysis of earless flat plates today, prompted by this post, which will show just how troublesome they can be.

  • even compared to 25k$ HATS, the system looks not that bad and my readings can be considered somehow valid (good thing),

Assuming we attribute the big departure below 3khz to unit variation with the LCD2 Classic, yes - your system does not seem to vary all that much, and possibly a fair bit less than the EARS - it might even be comparable in this regard to the ear simulator less HATS I have used prior to acquiring my current, fully-compliant unit.

  • there is a little room for applying a proper compensation curves for this system (bad thing),

This one is hard to be certain of. If your binaural microphone is, indeed, consistent in the degree to which it deviates from a HATS, it should be possible to apply the same compensation as for the HATS but compensated to the difference between the microphone and the HATS as well. I would not feel comfortable recommending that with the data we currently have, but if the differences were relatively stable (say, +.-2dB) between headphones, you might be able to somewhat safely apply a compensation curve. However, since your unit does not replicate a human head, you cannot characterize this curve via the conventional means of actually placing the measurement device in the sound field in question, it would need to be based on an estimate of difference, in the case of headphones, for your mic vs. a HATS with real compensation.

Of course, such a compensation would be unsuitable for really serious work - R&D, research, etc - but if the differences with the mic are relatively consistent, it should be close enough to give readers some idea of what they will hear. However, to determine if this was the case, you would need to measure many headphones on both of the two systems (I would say no less than 10 for my own comfort), and if they are different physical units, you may be confounded by the variation of QC.

  • I probably should stick with raw frequency response just as I am working with them right now (no need for changes?).

This is subjective - IMO, it is less useful to present readers with a raw FR...but it would be very difficult to compensate your current system well. At the least, it would be better to stay as you are now than to apply compensations intended for anthropomorphic HATS or derived from human measurements, and I would argue also better to stay with the raw data than the attempt to determine a compensation subjectively.

A huge and repeatable difference in ~1-4 kHz caught my attention here, where my system is getting quieter, without strong emphasis on this particular area. At the same time the peak in 6 kHz seems to be a little stronger. I am surprised mostly because I always thought about strong accuracy for this system up to 10 kHz and only from that point the readings should be less and less accurate. So much difference in 1-4 kHz really puzzles me. And reminds me of various target curves, like:

qXwSD4p.png



When I for example open my readings for LCD-2F, put them on and try to examine aquired data with my own ears, there is no such emphasis in 1-4 kHz. In HD800 - the same situation, strong peak in 6 kHz but no emphasis on 1-4 kHz range, both on my readings and when listening test signal (sine wave). Of course this way of verification is very inaccurate because of the human hearing curve, but I believe there should be at least some of the practical corelation between the tonality you are getting from synthetic readings and with your ears.

The explanation here is pretty simple: the point of comparison I am using is the raw response of my HATS, which features an accurate ear gain, which your mic does not. Because my HATS has an HRTF fairly close to the population average, you will see a rise into the resonance of the ear, whose specific shape (for a flat stimulus) will be determined in part by the sound field in question. Here are the HRTFs for on-axis free field and a diffuse field that B&K advertises, for example:

4128C HRTF.png


If we consider that subjective flat equates to diffuse field, we would subtract the diffuse field HRTF from the raw response to get the diffuse field compensated frequency response. The same is true if we consider that a more abstract target, like Dr. Olive's Harman target, is proper. I have used the raw data here simply because it was simpler, but if there was a consistent deviation in response between two systems, you could simply sum that with the HRTF to apply the same compensation to either.

I definitely would agree that it is ideal to present data with a compensation that is subjectively correct - which is why I favour diffuse field over the older but easier to validate free field - and don't usually support publishing uncompensated data, but since in this case it doesn't change things with regard to the suitability of your measurement system either way, I took a little shortcut :p

With 2C I agree that there is indeed an error on my side with proper placement. That is the reason for the graph getting huge dip in ~9kHz and ~16 kHz. With sub 1kHz differences, silicone ears often are getting in the way. They are quite stiff and can cause improper earpad sealing, which affect the amount of lows in readings. This thing can be in many cases corrected by holding headphones tight with velcro strap, so the silicone ears would bend easier. Not the most professional way, but quite effective.

One note with regard to placement: if you do not already, I strongly suggest you take averages of a number of positions or repeated placements (or both), which should cut down on eccentricities like that to some degree. Stiff ears wise, you're actually in the same boat as many of us there - accurate-stiffness pinnae are a "new" development (last ten years) in HATS, and so many people, myself included, have excessively stiff rubber ears for our dummies. I'd be careful with the placement of that strap, however, as it may be acoustically significant if put on the back of an open design.
 
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