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Audeze LCD-24 Review (Headphone)

Jimbob54

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Who's ignoring the measurements? Stop putting words in my mouth. I think people will be less bothered about using EQ to offset that dip than you are. You've made your stance on cold reading and judging headphones pretty clear. I wish I had the same confidence in my abilities and experience as you do.
 

Helicopter

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I don't think dips are as troublesome as peaks. Maybe a human brain handles them differently. Still, LCD-X dip is a problem for me, even with EQ, and LCD-24 dip is unacceptable to me at the price.
 
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amirm

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I want to make sure the spatial aspects of this headphone with EQ is not lost on you all. If it did not have that, it would rate lower. But it does and that makes headphone listening more fun than purely having a good frequency response. Frequency response is king but once you have that with EQ, having the other "something" pushes it over the edge.
 

Jimbob54

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Headphone comfort seems to be a very personal thing. I’ve tried various Audeze models and they’re all too heavy for me (I tire of any headphone over 400-450 grams in short order).

The ultra-low distortion is amazing, it’s a shame the other issues are such deal breakers.

They are indeed too heavy and poorly designed to spread that weight too- certainly the older models. I get a sore spot at the peak of the band . A divisive and problematic line up, the LCD range is but I fall on the side of those that like them more than not. Especially if you put velour pads on, not leather. But then that buggers up the measurements and therefore the EQ.
 

Guerilla

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Easy to get a basic figure of merit, but complex to get a meaningful one.

the numbers just don't capture the full extent of what is going on or how the ears work. That said, usually the ear turns out to be even less sensitive, but not always.
Thanks for explaining. I was afraid that it wasnt as simple as I hoped :D
 

PeteL

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Sure, I don't disagree, I would regard a fully integrated active HP as simply being an implementation tactic of this. But that is likely to take even longer to come to fruition. Right now, today, HPs could be offered that had a flat frequency response. A fully active premium HP is going to inevitably cost more, and probably include all the electronics in the HPs themselves. We end up with Apple Airpods Max. If you are happy with that, fine. We will probably get there. But I can't see most HP manufacturers having the capability or the desire to do so anytime soon.
I don't see why that couldn't be done right now, In fact it is already the bulk of the market, a huge share. Seems your gripe with this is that what sells right now are not in the "premium" category. Yes Bose Sony and apple do have many incentive to have other focuses than the pure goal of delivering the highest fidelity possible, but it's not because Apple do it a certain way that other more audiophile targeted brands cannot do this with this market in mind. It won't cost more. The tech is easy and widely available. Having the amp as a separate device cost more and is much less flexible, since you can only listen to music where the amp is. Yes not all headphones need to target the "portable" market, but 100% of them are carry able, it is for me key. If I pay a grand for a set (not talking 3.5k), I find If it can only be tied to my desk or else it sucks, not a great value.
 

wemist01

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I'm listening on an LCD-XC right now. The X got panned a year or so ago by Amir, but the fundamentals are pretty much the same. It sounds weird with out EQ, but with its low distortion, applying EQ produces wonderful results. I think the X review could be written in very much the same way as this review, but it seemed stuck in the shadow of Audeze's reputation for producing great cans right out of the box. Not true, obviously, but if you are EQ'ing, they are as good as anything. I use True-Fi for what it's worth.
 

KiyPhi

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I dont disagree. Im not going to touch a £3k headphone either, purely on price. But I have to take issue with this cold reading approach some take when it extends to recommending to others. If one will actively dissuade others from headphones you havent heard, you will also recommend on the same basis. This is a dangerous stance to adopt IMHO and seems to put more faith in the current suite of measurements than perhaps even those doing the measuring have. We have seen enough of examples of 'phones that look good on paper but fail to fully convince the reviewer and vice versa to tell us measurements should be a guide not a hard line. Especially saying 'phones like this cant be effectively EQ'd. Its not ideal; having such a large drop in that area- but not terminal by any means. Our host's comments are a good example of this.

Rule out on price by all means, and rule out by horrific FR and distortion levels overall, but I think ruling this pair out on FR alone is naive.
Yeah, for me the no-go is FR + price. When you can get what this headphone does from the same company for cheaper, I have a hard time swallowing this one. I have a $3,000 headphone, and I think it is worth it (but not on sound alone, you can get top notch sound for $350 no problem) and I can't wait for Amir to measure a pair. The thing is that it won't change my opinion even if it doesn't do so hot. However, there isn't another headphone (that I know of) that does what it does as a whole package. Still wouldn't recommend the Empyrean to 99% of people though, even if I love it.
 

Lunafag

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One day we'll have headphones tuned as good as IEMs but that day is not today. LCD-2 Classic should be competitive in distortion for a more "reasonable" price.
 

617

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I am growing wasabi in pots. It is doing very well there. They like shade, lots of water, and have to be protected in winter so pots work best.

What I showed in the picture was not wasabi. It is a type of radish with the name wasabi in it. I was hoping it would have some element of wasabi in it but it does not.

That's awesome. I regret not being a bit more adventurous with my planting this year. Five varieties of tomatoes and four kinds of basil. Radishes and cukes would be nice as well, but in fairness I am seeing watermelon radishes more commonly at the market.

I think this might be the year I get some blueberries too!
 

Robbo99999

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I want to make sure the spatial aspects of this headphone with EQ is not lost on you all. If it did not have that, it would rate lower. But it does and that makes headphone listening more fun than purely having a good frequency response. Frequency response is king but once you have that with EQ, having the other "something" pushes it over the edge.
That's certainly interesting, that's the element I put most stock in with regards to people's subjective listening experience, which is why I like my K702 so much. But given the $3500 for this headphone then I'd say go HD800s for same or better soundstage & probably better overall experience and less moolah (and also without the the big dip in treble)? Hey Amir, you gotta hold onto those benchmark headphones man.....so you can do some direct comparisons with some quick switching.....HD800s is the benchmark in my eyes! :D
 

AudioJester

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I want to make sure the spatial aspects of this headphone with EQ is not lost on you all. If it did not have that, it would rate lower. But it does and that makes headphone listening more fun than purely having a good frequency response. Frequency response is king but once you have that with EQ, having the other "something" pushes it over the edge.

Is it possible to redo frequency sweeps and distortion levels with your eq profile in place?
 

MayaTlab

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That's certainly interesting, that's the element I put most stock in with regards to people's subjective listening experience

The more I'm in a capacity to actually measure my headphones' FR near the eardrum, at least in relative terms, thanks to various techniques including DIY tube microphones, and the more I'm using it to assist in equalising them (among other techniques), the less and less I find anything related to sound localisation independent of frequency response. And since the latter depends to a degree on how each headphones will interact with your own anatomy, I'm not sure that someone else's subjective opinion is that valuable.
While I don't understand whatsoever what people mean by "soundstage" with stereo recording played on headphones, I've never had a better experience with generic HRTF profiles in surround sound simulation situations than with my pair of equalised HD650 (it's still rather unconvincing IMO). And I used to own a pair of HD800 which if only because of its significantly undesirably uneven response past 4kHz on my own head disqualifies it instantly for sound localisation capabilities without EQ (that's the case for most HPs anyway at least for me).
 
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amirm

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I'm listening on an LCD-XC right now. The X got panned a year or so ago by Amir, but the fundamentals are pretty much the same. It sounds weird with out EQ, but with its low distortion, applying EQ produces wonderful results. I think the X review could be written in very much the same way as this review, but it seemed stuck in the shadow of Audeze's reputation for producing great cans right out of the box. Not true, obviously, but if you are EQ'ing, they are as good as anything. I use True-Fi for what it's worth.
We will take another bite out of that Apple as Audeze has sent me their updated LCD-X for review.
 
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amirm

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Is it possible to redo frequency sweeps and distortion levels with your eq profile in place?
It is a lot of work as my analyzer can't be in control anymore. The raw estimate is in the graphs anyway. If you boosted all frequencies by 10 dB, the 94 dB line would become the 104 dB one:

index.php


Which means that the dial will barely move. To the extent you only raise certain frequencies with EQ, the impact will be even less.

What you ask is more useful when a headphone distorts a lot more and non-linearly. Here it is really academic.
 
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amirm

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Hey Amir, you gotta hold onto those benchmark headphones man.....so you can do some direct comparisons with some quick switching.....HD800s is the benchmark in my eyes!
I am too poor! Between spending money on shipping gear and the garden, I have just a few pennies left. No way I can afford to buy stuff you all buy! Now, the situation would instantly change if someone send me $3,000 just now!!!
 

Jimbob54

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I am too poor! Between spending money on shipping gear and the garden, I have just a few pennies left. No way I can afford to buy stuff you all buy! Now, the situation would instantly change if someone send me $3,000 just now!!!
So these would be keepers?
 

Robbo99999

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The more I'm in a capacity to actually measure my headphones' FR near the eardrum, at least in relative terms, thanks to various techniques including DIY tube microphones, and the more I'm using it to assist in equalising them (among other techniques), the less and less I find anything related to sound localisation independent of frequency response. And since the latter depends to a degree on how each headphones will interact with your own anatomy, I'm not sure that someone else's subjective opinion is that valuable.
While I don't understand whatsoever what people mean by "soundstage" with stereo recording played on headphones, I've never had a better experience with generic HRTF profiles in surround sound simulation situations than with my pair of equalised HD650 (it's still rather unconvincing IMO). And I used to own a pair of HD800 which if only because of its significantly undesirably uneven response past 4kHz on my own head disqualifies it instantly for sound localisation capabilities without EQ (that's the case for most HPs anyway at least for me).
I certainly agree that measured frequency response (as seen on GRAS measurement devices) influence spatial characteristics and I've confirmed that through some EQ experimentation of my own, however I keep coming back to the K702 for it's spatial characteristics regardless of EQ manipulations on other headphones, so I think there is something happening that is not being captured by the GRAS measurement devices when it comes to spatial properties of headphones. Of course measured frequency response is an element, but it doesn't seem to be all when considering spatial properties of headphones. (I EQ all my headphones to the Harman Curve)

To me "soundstage" is a description of how you perceive/visualise the imaging of the headphone in terms of physical placement of vocals / instruments / effects in the panorama that is created by the headphones. For instance my HD600 has a narrow soundstage that feels like all that placement is happening within the space of my head, whereas with my K702 the physical space is expanded outside of my head left & right as well as slightly in front of me.....hence to me they image sound closer to my JBL 308p Mkii speakers (equilateral triangle) than any of my other headphones.....both the K702 & the JBL speakers create a wall of sound effect that wraps around the side of you slightly too. My K702 doesn't image in exactly the same way, but it's quite close and certainly closer than my other headphones.
I am too poor! Between spending money on shipping gear and the garden, I have just a few pennies left. No way I can afford to buy stuff you all buy! Now, the situation would instantly change if someone send me $3,000 just now!!!
Ha, well that would be one generous benefactor!
 

MayaTlab

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I certainly agree that measured frequency response (as seen on GRAS measurement devices) influence spatial characteristics and I've confirmed that through some EQ experimentation of my own, however I keep coming back to the K702 for it's spatial characteristics regardless of EQ manipulations on other headphones, so I think there is something happening that is not being captured by the GRAS measurement devices when it comes to spatial properties of headphones. Of course measured frequency response is an element, but it doesn't seem to be all when considering spatial properties of headphones. (I EQ all my headphones to the Harman Curve)

That's exactly why I've started to measure headphones on my own head with various techniques, for the "last mile" in EQ that you won't get from dummy head / test rig measurements. If I equalise HPs according to someone else's measurements and profiles to a target, they'll still diverge quite significantly when measured on my head (albeit less so if they diverged a lot before).
Not that dummy head measurements are useless, far from it, given that most HPs are still grossly deficient and would benefit from third party EQ profiles (although a lot are rubbish enough that they have un-equable peaks / dips and can't be saved). That's a great service to the community what Oratory, Crinacle, Amir, Rtings, Resolve, etc. are doing.

Otherwise it's evident that FR can't be all in terms of sound localisation with headphones since you're necessarily missing the other cues we use to localise sounds in space. For that we need surround sound simulation systems for headphones, perhaps tailored to one's own anatomy.

hence to me they image sound closer to my JBL 308p Mkii speakers (equilateral triangle) than any of my other headphones.....

Do you use crossfeed algorithms ? Personally I don't get anything that resembles speakers without some degree of crossfeed, and the latter's algorithms were utterly unconvincing until I started to equalise my headphones in a more fine-grained manner (and they're still not that great. I'm not sure that they will ever be until the algorithm can be modulated according to my own morphology, at least to some point).
 

Robbo99999

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That's exactly why I've started to measure headphones on my own head with various techniques, for the "last mile" in EQ that you won't get from dummy head / test rig measurements. If I equalise HPs according to someone else's measurements and profiles to a target, they'll still diverge quite significantly when measured on my head (albeit less so if they diverged a lot before).
Not that dummy head measurements are useless, far from it, given that most HPs are still grossly deficient and would benefit from third party EQ profiles (although a lot are rubbish enough that they have un-equable peaks / dips and can't be saved). That's a great service to the community what Oratory, Crinacle, Amir, Rtings, Resolve, etc. are doing.

Otherwise it's evident that FR can't be all in terms of sound localisation with headphones since you're necessarily missing the other cues we use to localise sounds in space. For that we need surround sound simulation systems for headphones, perhaps tailored to one's own anatomy.



Do you use crossfeed algorithms ? Personally I don't get anything that resembles speakers without some degree of crossfeed, and the latter's algorithms were utterly unconvincing until I started to equalise my headphones in a more fine-grained manner (and they're still not that great. I'm not sure that they will ever be until the algorithm can be modulated according to my own morphology, at least to some point).
I don't actually use crossfeed in my headphones, although interestingly @jhaider said to me one time that the only headphone he didn't need to use crossfeed with was with his K702....thought that was worth mentioning although I don't quite know the significance of that.

I do use virtual 7.1 surround sound on my headphones when I game, my SoundblasterX G6 DAC, and my K702 is the best headphone for sound localisation in 3D space as created by the surround algorithms of the software....so in relating to crossfeed, I think crossfeed is one of the tricks used in virtual 7.1 surround sound, so that's the only time I use crossfeed, indirectly. I certainly don't use virtual 7.1 surround sound for music listening though....I flip my DAC to Direct Mode which removes all sound processing and shifts it into Stereo mode....I only have 2 channel music, I don't have any multichannel recorded music.

It's interesting what you're doing re measuring your own headphones on your own head using in-ear mics, but for me I see a problem with that...in as much that there is no Target Curve to EQ to from your own measurements. Not unless you've created your own target curve based on measuring a set of speakers in your room using your in-ear mics first. For instance, EQ'ing your headphones to the Harman Curve from you in-ear measurements wouldn't be valid as it is only relateable to the GRAS measurement devices and not your own ears.

EDIT: you might want to try Impulcifier, as that should be right up your street considering you've gone to the trouble of in-ear mics (I haven't tried this yet, once I have the motivation & time to do it then I'll try it, but to be honest Harman EQ'd headphones sound good to me already so less motivation, but it does sound like an amazing project and I'm sure the end result would be noticeably different one way or the other):
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ifer-copy-speaker-sounds-to-headphones.23154/
https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/Impulcifer
 
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